Jump to content

Struggling with gears


Aerodyll
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi guys,

I am in the middle of a DAS course, just moved up to a 600cc Fazer. I have had half a day on this bike and I am really struggling to get comfortable with gears. Going up the gearbox isn't too bad but going down it really unnerves me. I seem to have built up a psychological barrier and really confused/scared myself regarding downshifting to the point that its messing up everything else on the bike.


I ride an automatic scooter and have never driven a car so gears are a new thing to me. I was sort of getting there on the 125 but then I changed to the bigger bike and everything feels different and I am pretty intimidated by the machine now.


I know the process of how to shift gears (ignoring rev matching and that for now just simple clutch in, gear change, revs up and clutch out for the moment). But I really struggle to understand when and I am really scared of locking the back wheel. On the 125 it was easy to understand when to change the gear as the throttle only had 2 positions and the engine was easily audible when it was racing or struggling. The fazer is so quiet and the revs have such a range that even in first gear I was doing up to 25/30mph and the rpm's where still only at 5k.


I guess I want to ask how do you know when it is the right time to change gears? And when going down the gear box up to a junction how early do you start the process? The engine braking on the 600cc took me by surprise so I ended up stopping way before the white line last time.


And finally just to put it into perspective for me, is this fear/confusion common? I have my mod1 test booked for next week and have a lesson between now and then and at the moment I feel like I should consider giving it up as I am finding the whole thing quite stressful. The only real fun Ive had so far was feeling the power of the big bike when we got onto an open stretch of road.


Thanks

Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are in full control of the bike and going at the required speed for where ever you are, then you are in a correct gear. The bike will splutter and jerk around if you are in too high a gear for your speed, or will be screaming if you are in too low a gear.


When I'm out on a lesson I use a SV650, the engine braking on that is also pretty sudden. What I do is slow down then knock it down to 2nd well before the junction, then ride slowly up to the line in second. Immediately before the line, pull the clutch in and knock it down to first if I have to stop. Otherwise just keep going in second.

My instructor mentioned that he knows a fair few of his pupils have done the whole mod 2 test in 2nd and 3rd on that bike. They get a mark for not riding economically, but it is perfectly capable of doing the whole test route only using 3 gears.


Generally you should use the brakes to slow down rather than engine braking. So brake, then change down the gears.

You move up the gears once you have reached your required speed in order to reduce the load on the engine and so reduce the rev's (and noise)


Have you spoken to your instructor about this? Could be spending 10-15min of going up and down the gears while staying at the same speed will let you feel the difference. And so it will all make sense to you :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you spoken to your instructor about this? Could be spending 10-15min of going up and down the gears while staying at the same speed will let you feel the difference. And so it will all make sense to you :-)

 

All of what Arwen said but especially the above! if you have never used gears before then learning how the vehicle sounds and reacts when you are in the wrong gear will take you a while (and even when you have been driving.riding for a while you will still get it wrong! Anyone who says they have never tried to pull off in second is a liar)


It will click probably quicker than you think, you just need to push the frustration to the back of your mind and talk to your instructor and practise practise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you spoken to your instructor about this? Could be spending 10-15min of going up and down the gears while staying at the same speed will let you feel the difference. And so it will all make sense to you :-)

 

All of what Arwen said but especially the above! if you have never used gears before then learning how the vehicle sounds and reacts when you are in the wrong gear will take you a while (and even when you have been driving.riding for a while you will still get it wrong! Anyone who says they have never tried to pull off in second is a liar)


It will click probably quicker than you think, you just need to push the frustration to the back of your mind and talk to your instructor and practise practise.

 

As said. especially ride at one speed and go through the gears up and down. Also when changing down don't just let the clutch out "bang". let it out gently then there is less chance of locking up the back wheel. Also a little bit of revs on the down change helps, but not too much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Anyone who says they have never tried to pull off in second is a liar)

 

 

Did that on my mod 2, stalled it, still got a pass.


I asked my instructor about locking up the back wheel and he said something like "Don’t worry about locking the back wheel up as you should be going up and down the box in sequence right now anyway. Only time you should drop more than one gear is if you have to suddenly stop. Traffic lights don’t count as that is bad anticipation."


At the speed you’re doing Ben unless you try and go from top at 70MPH to bottom or something silly like that there is little to no danger of locking up the back wheel even if you dump the clutch (just let it out)


As for when to change, an easy was to think about it is. If the bike is screaming change up if you need more power change down, I don’t even look at my rev counter anymore all of the engine noise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IL4s as Fazer engine braking is more forgiving and gentle then twins like SFV650.

 

"Don’t worry about locking the back wheel up as you should be going up and down the box in sequence right now anyway. Only time you should drop more than one gear is if you have to suddenly stop. Traffic lights don’t count as that is bad anticipation."

 

Absolutely not. There is no need whatsoever to have sequential gear change at all. I have a Fazer FZS600. If I do a traffic light gran prix I do 1st then 2nd. Bear in mind I can do 70mph in 2nd. After I reach some speed and I am far away ahead I just go from 2nd to 4th or even 5th. Doing sequential change makes your ride too aggresive. The same is even more valid for downshifting.


Probably the instructor already told you - never use the engine braking only when slow down. That is a fault in the mod2 and also very bad habit in the real life. You do not want to be rear ended by a car do you? Always use a brake too, so that the vehicles behind see your brake light and know that you're slowing down.


There are many ways to use gears. Say you are doing 30 mph. You can do that on Fazer in 4th and even 5th gear, the higher the gear the more forgiving is the engine braking. Engine braking is very strong in low gears like 1st, 2nd, 3rd.


You do not need to go via all gears available when slowing down and downshift. The key to smooth ride is forward planning. Say you are doing 30mph in 4th approaching roundabout or a traffic light. Do not slam on the breakes or change gears to slow down. You can apply slight brake and stay in 4th and plan your arrival. If needed pull the clutch and brake but stay in 4th. If you really see you need to slow down more, downshift when the clucth is pulled this way engine braking is not affecting your smooth ride. The goal is to stay in higher gear and when you need to engage again slip the clutch a little (you keep it at the biting point but not fully on and apply a little trhottle so that you do not stall the bike) this way you can go via the roundabout at say 20 mph in 4th gear.


If you see you need to stop you apply first front brake say when 30mph in 4th gear, after the bikes slows down to say 10 mph then pull the clutch and do not engage again the gears just downshift all the way to 1st gear and go to a full stop with the front and back brake without using any of the low gears. This way when you stop at the traffic light completely you keep your right foot on the back brake and just put your left foot down. Very smooth stop. And you already are in first gear so no need to use your left foot. When the light goes green or the roundabout is free you just let smoothly the clutch again slipping it with a little throttle to be sure no stall, release the back brake and off you go again.


You use low gears downshifting only when you need not all the time. For example you want to be in 2nd because you need to be at more torque for some reason. Like 4x4 coming behind and you anticipate fast accelerating in 2nd. Really not gonna happen on mod2.


Try my method until you get more epxerience with gears. Whatever you do braking or changing gears make sure you do it smoothly. The movement of the bike must be smooth not jerky. Smooth gear change happens when you slip the clutch a little. The bike moves more smoothly if you keep higher gear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IL4s as Fazer engine braking is more forgiving and gentle then twins like SFV650.

 

"Don’t worry about locking the back wheel up as you should be going up and down the box in sequence right now anyway. Only time you should drop more than one gear is if you have to suddenly stop. Traffic lights don’t count as that is bad anticipation."

 

Absolutely not. There is no need whatsoever to have sequential gear change at all. I have a Fazer FZS600. If I do a traffic light gran prix I do 1st then 2nd. Bear in mind I can do 70mph in 2nd. After I reach some speed and I am far away ahead I just go from 2nd to 4th or even 5th. Doing sequential change makes your ride too aggresive. The same is even more valid for downshifting.

 

I see what you mean and that’s a perfectly good way to ride but I know that if I did 70 in second my instructor would have boxed my ears. :lol: With proper clutch and throttle control, sequential gear changes are perfectly smooth. It also helps demonstrate good control of the bike. Lastly as with my bike unless I let the clutch out just a little after dropping more than one gear it just won’t do it. Might be the same going up but I don’t know always use clutch less change on the way up after 2nd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having ridden an older fazer 600 in a bit of anger, I'd say they are actually going to be hard to get the wheel locking. Other than the 1st to 2nd clunk over the neutral their gearboxes seemed pretty nice to use.


Defo don't just dump the clutch on a downshift though, ease it out :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, don't dump the clutch. That's about all you need to do.


If you use the clutch smoothly, pausing for split second as you go through the point where it bites, then all will be well. Even if you pick the wrong gear, the bike will tell you (chugging like a tractor = you need a lower gear, engine suddenly racing and the bike slowing down = you need to go up a gear) and you will be able to shift to the right gear before the wrong one was fully engaged. And if you keep the clutch smooth and you pick the right gear, then it will feel velvety beautiful :D


It will take a while*, but you will get the hang of it.


(*I am still trying to improve my gear change...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the help guys, that has really made me feel better about it. I think on my lesson I am going to drop my speed for junctions well before I normally would and then ride up to the line in first. Going down the gearbox as my speed drops.


One thing that still really confuses me is that people mention that you can drop down gears to go faster? That seems very backwards to me. I always thought each gear had a maximum speed it would produce and you go up the gears to get access to higher speeds. I understand now that this is incorrect but still don't fully understand how they work. I have heard people say that lower gears produce acceleration but no force and higher gears do the opposite but this still confuses me.


And another question relating to downshifting. Do you lower your speed before you shift the gear or can you do it before so the engine braking helps you so its not all brakes?


Sorry if these are annoying or simple, as I said I seem to be in the minority of people who can't get their head around this. I was told to think of gears as being similar to those on a bicycle but I always found the highest gears produced the most speed so i am at a loss as to how to understand them .


Thanks

Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When folk say they go down a gear to go faster what they really mean is that they go down to "accelerate" faster.

you are correct in saying the higher gears enable you to go faster.

If you relate this to a push bike the higher gears mean you can have a higher top speed, but you would not start of in the top gear 'cause it would require too much effort to accelerate, so you start in low gear and as the speed increases change up.

likewise when you come to a hill when it gets too much effort to pedal in the present gear you change down then it is easier to pedal but you may stay at the same speed.


hope that all makes sense, it did to me but then i know what i am trying to say :lol:


You want to be slowing down then changing down to an appropriate gear for the speed you are travelling at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Downshifting to go faster... The power a combustion engine produces tails off sharply as the revs go down (this is unlike an electric motor, which can produce a lot of power even when it's going slowly). It depends on the bike, but peak power might be at 6k or 9k or even 11k revs. If you're only doing say 3k and you want to accelerate, then the best thing is to shift down while you open the throttle a snadge, so the motor's now at say 4k, and you're still doing the same speed. Now, when you open the throttle up, there a load more power on tap.


As for how to go slower, the basic rule is use the brakes. That's what they're for.


This is how I'd approach an ideal junction:

1) clutch in, release the throttle and engage the brakes (that all basically one action); 2) as I slow down approaching the junction, I gradually go down the gears. keeping the clutch in all the time


If I'm planning to stop at the junction

3) just before stopping, I engage first gear; the clutch is still in. Now I'm all set up to start off again in 1st whenever I want.


If I wanted to ride on through the junction (e.g. I'm turning left at a give way)

3) I engage the gear I'm planning to pull of in (normally 2nd, but it might be 3rd at a large roundabout) before reaching the junction

4) if the road is still clear, then I release the brakes, and more or less at the same time gently release the clutch to the bite point, adding a little throttle. The idea is to get the bike moving forward again powered by the motor; I don't want to coast round the junction without any power, as the bike won't be stable, but I don't want to open the throttle up and accelerate away like Rossi.

5) By the time I'm half way round the corner, I've gently let the clutch out and fully in gear


Dunno if this help. Probably it just makes it seem a lot more complicated than it really is :oops:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When coming to a junction the really hard part is going down the gears but letting the clutch out for each gear. I was told to release the throttle, squeeze the clutch, brake and change down but to release the clutch for each gear. This takes so long and the engine braking on the 600 meant that as soon as I release the clutch I slow down rapidly. I have since started applying some more throttle as I release the clutch but still quite a lot of steps to go through.


He also told me I need to be in first before I stop at least for a few meters as he had a go at me for changing just before I stop then putting my foot down as it unbalances me (which is fair enough).


I wouldn't say I am looking forward to this Saturday with a full day on the big bike but I think I am dreading it a little less.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When coming to a junction the really hard part is going down the gears but letting the clutch out for each gear. I was told to release the throttle, squeeze the clutch, brake and change down but to release the clutch for each gear.

I would find that clumsy to do. I often double or triple shift coming down the gears. But I if you do, then yes, open the throttle more on each downshift so that the engine doesn't slow you down so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When coming to a junction the really hard part is going down the gears but letting the clutch out for each gear. I was told to release the throttle, squeeze the clutch, brake and change down but to release the clutch for each gear. This takes so long and the engine braking on the 600 meant that as soon as I release the clutch I slow down rapidly. I have since started applying some more throttle as I release the clutch but still quite a lot of steps to go through.

 

When you write out the procedure it does look very cumbersome and if you try to do it in sequence as you are finding it is almost unworkable. However as you become more comfortable with the riding and changing you will find it becomes second nature and you will be doing a lot of those steps simultaneously and not sequentially, if that makes sense. it is just practise you need.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Had my lesson yesterday. It went very well, much better than before. I spoke very with the instructor before going out about my issue and he gave me some good advice. As I am used to controlling the speed with the throttle from my scooter he said to slowly roll off the throttle and sightly tap the front brake as I slow down. Not to use it to brake yet just to warn other drivers I'm slowing. Then as I close the throttle I apply the front brake then add a bit of rear brake.


I bring the clutch in to change down as I go but just feather it to get some engine braking. As I get close to stopping I release the front and slow control to a stop.


This made it much easier for me. I missed a few gears and changing could be smoother and I stalled once but that should come with experience. Enjoyed my lesson though which made a big difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds like it's all clicking into place, that's it really, am sure a book could and has been written on it but it just all comes together at some point. Sounds like you will soon be ready for that MOD1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Downshifting to go faster... The power a combustion engine produces tails off sharply as the revs go down (this is unlike an electric motor, which can produce a lot of power even when it's going slowly). It depends on the bike, but peak power might be at 6k or 9k or even 11k revs. If you're only doing say 3k and you want to accelerate, then the best thing is to shift down while you open the throttle a snadge, so the motor's now at say 4k, and you're still doing the same speed. Now, when you open the throttle up, there a load more power on tap.


As for how to go slower, the basic rule is use the brakes. That's what they're for.


This is how I'd approach an ideal junction:

1) clutch in, release the throttle and engage the brakes (that all basically one action); 2) as I slow down approaching the junction, I gradually go down the gears. keeping the clutch in all the time


If I'm planning to stop at the junction

3) just before stopping, I engage first gear; the clutch is still in. Now I'm all set up to start off again in 1st whenever I want.


If I wanted to ride on through the junction (e.g. I'm turning left at a give way)

3) I engage the gear I'm planning to pull of in (normally 2nd, but it might be 3rd at a large roundabout) before reaching the junction

4) if the road is still clear, then I release the brakes, and more or less at the same time gently release the clutch to the bite point, adding a little throttle. The idea is to get the bike moving forward again powered by the motor; I don't want to coast round the junction without any power, as the bike won't be stable, but I don't want to open the throttle up and accelerate away like Rossi.

5) By the time I'm half way round the corner, I've gently let the clutch out and fully in gear


Dunno if this help. Probably it just makes it seem a lot more complicated than it really is :oops:

I really don't recommend holding the clutch in all the time whether you are in a bike or car. The amount of engine braking available can make a massive impact to the retardation of the vehicle.


In a car at least, if you coasted on the clutch while braking, you would fail your test.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a car at least, if you coasted on the clutch while braking, you would fail your test.

 

On both bike and in the car, I've had the instructor say that coasting like that means you're "not in control of the vehicle" and therefore will fail.


As you said you also lose out on engine breaking, which on lesser cylinder bikes can by itself be quite reasonable.


I believe it also helps you to stop locking the rear. If you've the clutch out the engine is still trying to turn the wheel, helping stop it lock. I may be wrong about this however.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Welcome to The Motorbike Forum.

    Sign in or register an account to join in.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

Please Sign In or Sign Up