Do they teach you wrong cornering?

I'm pretty sure the instructor told me to lean the body OUTSIDE (i.e. trying to keep it upright).

He also told me to ensure any pillion passenger would know NOT TO LEAN INSIDE or the would make you fall.

However I was doing some research to improve the way I take bends and every were they say exactly the opposite: lean the body inside, even more than the bike...

So did the instructor teach me wrong or it makes sense?

Surely this calls for a Montgomery Scott quote - Ye canna change the laws of physics.

Are you sure you heard right?

What you're reading online is more aimed at how to go quicker round corners, your instructor is teaching you how to be stable round corners .

If I've read this right (and I probably haven't)

Leaning inside keeps the bike more upright for faster bends, putting your weight outside is when you want to counterbalance the bike when cornering slowly. You certainly wouldn't want a pillion going the other way.

Yeah he's teaching you to lean out and balance the bike to make it easier in mod1.

Also the pillion thing is more make sure they don't over lean. You don't want them hanging off the bike and unsettling it they should keep their body in line with the rider as much as possible. People like seeing where they are going by leaning round you and this can be bad

I always tell the pillion to stay in line with the bike I do the moving if its required. Worst thing ever is a Pillion leaning into a bend unexpectedly and moving you off line

Dosn't matter what way you lean. It has little effect on steering.

Only have to look at mx.

Bikes laid on its side and there upright.

I know this is resurrecting an old thread but cornering is a very important issue and there seems to be a lot of confusion over low speed turns from stationary.

Pillioning has taught me a lot about cornering. When a pillion shifts their weight to the right the bike tries to turn right, when they shift their weight to the left the bike tries to turn left. This is absolute and the reason why pillions must never shift around below 10 mph. Above 10 mph gyroscopic action keeps the bike stable whatever the pillion does.

When turning left at low speed if you simply turn the bars the bike will begin to turn left and the centre of gravity of the bike moves immediately to the right. This is exactly what happens when you have a cup full of coffee in a car and then drive, as you turn left the cup stays where it is in the car and the coffee moves to the right and spills, the centre of gravity of everything in the car moves to the right when you turn to the left.

This moving around of the centre of gravity then makes the bike unstable because the centre of gravity of the bike is no longer over the tyres, and this makes the bike resist the turn, and this leads to wobbling and an inability to turn easily or at all. This is a problem that learners and the inexperienced see all too often.

To turn compactly and easily requires a lean to the side that you are turning to as well as an initiation of the turn with the bars. This in itself is difficult to generate, because in order to be stable in a turn you must begin the turn by being unstable. The tighter the turn the more unstable you must be at the start of it to establish a stable turn. This is the paradox of the bike turn and it is counter-intuitive.

As you become accomplished you can efficiently initiate a deep lean synchronised with a large turn of the bars so that the initial instability translates into and becomes a stable turn.

When in the stable turn and committed to it, the ability to pick the bike up by a combination of fine throttle control and fine bar control makes for easy adjustments and allows corrections keeping the turn compact efficient and safe.

The problem that many suffer from with accepting this concept of shift of centre of gravity affecting the balance of the bike and therefore its turning ability is their failure to see the bike plus baggage plus rider plus pillion as a single whole system rather than individually. It is not how the bike leans but how the entire system leans that determines the true position of the centre of gravity.

It is above all the quality of control of that centre of gravity that determines the quality of the turn and the safety of it.

I know this is resurrecting an old thread but cornering is a very important issue and there seems to be a lot of confusion over low speed turns from stationary.

Pillioning has taught me a lot about cornering. When a pillion shifts their weight to the right the bike tries to turn right, when they shift their weight to the left the bike tries to turn left. This is absolute and the reason why pillions must never shift around below 10 mph. Above 10 mph gyroscopic action keeps the bike stable whatever the pillion does.

When turning left at low speed if you simply turn the bars the bike will begin to turn left and the centre of gravity of the bike moves immediately to the right. This is exactly what happens when you have a cup full of coffee in a car and then drive, as you turn left the cup stays where it is in the car and the coffee moves to the right and spills, the centre of gravity of everything in the car moves to the right when you turn to the left.

This moving around of the centre of gravity then makes the bike unstable because the centre of gravity of the bike is no longer over the tyres, and this makes the bike resist the turn, and this leads to wobbling and an inability to turn easily or at all. This is a problem that learners and the inexperienced see all too often.

To turn compactly and easily requires a lean to the side that you are turning to as well as an initiation of the turn with the bars. This in itself is difficult to generate, because in order to be stable in a turn you must begin the turn by being unstable. The tighter the turn the more unstable you must be at the start of it to establish a stable turn. This is the paradox of the bike turn and it is counter-intuitive.

As you become accomplished you can efficiently initiate a deep lean synchronised with a large turn of the bars so that the initial instability translates into and becomes a stable turn.

When in the stable turn and committed to it, the ability to pick the bike up by a combination of fine throttle control and fine bar control makes for easy adjustments and allows corrections keeping the turn compact efficient and safe.

The problem that many suffer from with accepting this concept of shift of centre of gravity affecting the balance of the bike and therefore its turning ability is their failure to see the bike plus baggage plus rider plus pillion as a single whole system rather than individually. It is not how the bike leans but how the entire system leans that determines the true position of the centre of gravity.

It is above all the quality of control of that centre of gravity that determines the quality of the turn and the safety of it.

 

Have you ever actually ridden a motorcyle??

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I'm pretty sure the instructor told me to lean the body OUTSIDE (i.e. trying to keep it upright).

He also told me to ensure any pillion passenger would know NOT TO LEAN INSIDE or the would make you fall.

However I was doing some research to improve the way I take bends and every were they say exactly the opposite: lean the body inside, even more than the bike...

So did the instructor teach me wrong or it makes sense?

 

If you're talking about instruction for your CBT, or for Mod 1 slow manoeuvres, then it makes sense. Having your weight on the outside makes slow turns far more manageable.

I detect a certain incredulity Joeman well thats your prerogative

2 options

1 your instructor is a complete loon.

2 you need to wash your ears out and pay attention.

As for some of the other stuff on this post, the bike turns according to the laws of physics and as has been said by [mention]Mississippi Bullfrog[/mention] ye cana change the laws of physics, not even if your mates call you jim

Absolutely agreed Bender.

Physics - its the law, and you cant change the law. momentum, centre of gravity, leaning. Thats all we have. Oh yes and the bendy bit in the middle.

There is racing way of riding, breaking into the corner accelarating soon as you can out, leaning into the bend

Then there is normal way of riding.....

There is racing way of riding, breaking into the corner accelarating soon as you can out, leaning into the bend

Then there is normal way of riding.....

That IS the normal way of riding. Okay you don't need to get your knee down or scrape your pegs but slow on entry and accelerate out of the bend once you can see the exit is the way to go. And yes the bike will lean and so will you. Suggest you try riding a bike before telling us how it's done.

Sorry to reply/reserect this, but as a new rider, does this translate into; if you're riding about town/city turning right, lean right, turning left lean left and if going very slow, like in a car park and turning right, lean left to counter balance and compensate for the slower speed?

Hi [mention]Foeism[/mention], as a rough guideline:

Below 20mph (slow manoeuvres), counter balance / counter weight

Above that, counter steering rulez, push the bar in the direction you want to go and lean with the bike

With all turning, point your chin where you want to go.

Hi

Excellent, thank you!

A good point about pushing the bar and chin, practice makes perfect as they say. And something I want to get into the habit of now, before my DAS later on in the year.

Nobody taught me how to corner. If I am going into a left hand corner and lean right, I fall off. If I lean left I get around the corner. Simples

Nobody taught me how to corner. If I am going into a left hand corner and lean right, I fall off. If I lean left I get around the corner. Simples

 

Your right, sometimes you can look into things too much and miss the obvious. And being new to riding I tend to over think things. However if I was looking at my 20 year old self, I'd probably wouldn't even of thought about it!

Blimey - just revisited this thread, and there are all sorts pf conflicting messages that together present a pretty confusing picture of turning/counter steering. Here's a simple summary, then.

At slow speeds - say, <10mph: counter steering does NOT work (

a little video to prove it). You need to turn the handlebars in the direction you wish to go, and have your weight on the outside of the bike for balance. Note - this is particularly important in terms of getting to grips with Mod 1 slow manoeuvres, as well as real life situations such as U-turns.

At faster speeds - hard to define precisely where the line is drawn, but certainly over 10mph and (some would say) any speed where the bike will remain balanced if you remove your hands from the bars: counter steering is your friend, and you can forget about placing your weight on the outside - you should be leaning with the bike.

HTH

So one last time;

Slow speed it get it... finally!

Faster speed: as per [mention]SometimesSansEngine[/mention] Pull/push on on the right bar to turn right and visa versa.

Going out for an hour!

So one last time;

Slow speed it get it... finally!

Faster speed: as per @SometimesSansEngine Pull/push on on the right bar to turn right and visa versa.

Going out for an hour!

 

And if you want to prove further the countersteering effect @foeism, PULL the bars instead of pushing.

So when you go into a righthander, no pressure on the right bar and PULL the left bar towards you. You'll get the same effect as pushing the right bar.

This exercise is also useful to prove to yourself that if your cornering 'doesn't feel right' it may be because one arm is fighting the other.

So one last time;

Slow speed it get it... finally!

Faster speed: as per @SometimesSansEngine [strikeout]Pull/[/strikeout]push on on the right bar to turn right and visa versa.

Going out for an hour!

 

Nearly - see above (you'd have to pull on the left bar to turn right)

Edited January 30, 2019 by learningtofly

Thanks both, appreciate your time to explain

So I've popped out and can say it feels "natural" to pull on the left bar l, if turning right and visa versa when turning left, it actually leans your body, slightly into the turn!

I also tried the push on the right to turn right, but felt a little more upright when doing so.