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The oldest bike restoration thread on here?


Guest Gautrek
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I am a great believer in fate and doing right by people (what goes a round comes around) I think the following story explains why.


While I was riding around the trial area at the 1000 bikes do at Mallory in 2013 on my panther I was accosted by a random stranger.


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/T__4.jpg


My 1937 Panther trial bike


He wandered over and said I have been looking for you. To which I replied why? He then went on to tell me that he had rescued a pre war panther frame and forks out of a skip about 20 years ago and he had finally realised that he would never get round to doing anything with it. So he said I could have it. To which I replied ok and then asked how much. He said no you can have it for free as long as I gave him a go when its done. He gave me his phone number and then wandered off.


So later in the week I decided to phone him and he said the frame is yours if you want it. I then went to the set up day for Founders day (which is my clubs annual 1 day vintage bike event) which was the weekend after Mallory. My dad was talking to a fellow Taverners section member who mentioned that he had a engine which was very similar to mine knocking about and if I wanted it then I could have it for a fair price. On the proviso that he had a go on the finished bike. I popped up to see the engine and it turned out to be a 1938 350cc twin port Redwing. Which as luck would have it was fitted to the exact same frame as I was being offered.


So any way the frame was duly picked up on the Friday of the August bank holiday after a nightmare journey to Duxford to drop my mate off and then a drive down to London. I did a round trip of nearly 300 miles and spent most of the day sat in traffic on the M11 and A14 due to all of London leaving to go on holiday(M11) and some tosser driving down the bank into a ditch (a14).


So on the Saturday after I had a dry build( along with various bits myself and my dad have ended up with over the years).


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/DSCF0842.jpg


The engine looks like it just needs a strip down and a clean as its on +60 on the bore with very slight wear, the bottom end feels fine ,the carb is nearly new and complete apart from a main jet. I have got a 3 speed gearbox to use and will be making this hand change. The tank is a bit of a mess but I am going to buy a gas torch so I can have a go at brazing it up myself. The gearbox in this shot has the optional foot change mechanism fitted which is basically a box with various springs in it to give a sort of positive stop for the gear lever.



http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/DSCF0843.jpg


The forks still bounce up and down so at least they are not seized and they look fairly straight and not too corroded. Which if you bear in mind that Girder forks are going for over £500 on ebay at the moment is a bit of a result


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/DSCF0846.jpg


I even found this on the front guard. which will be going back on once it rebuilt.


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/DSCF0850.jpg


This is roughly what the bike will look like once its done. Minus the lights and fitted with a 3 speed hand change box.


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/38_b_p9.jpg


I will have a whole 11 HP to play with and about 70 MPH and 70 MPG. I have made a bit of progress with this bike in the last few months and will post more in the future.

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Awesome story. That's some kind of fate/karma/destiny at work there. Planets aligned to give you what you needed or some other crazy voodoo like that.

Whatever, just keep us posted on the rebuild. That's gonna be an epic bike!!

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I suppose I should give you lot a bit of back ground on the panthers that I have.

My trials bike is a 1937 350cc Red Panther. It was originally a 250 but all P&M( Phelon & Moore) did to make a 350 was to bore about 5 mm out of the barrel and fit a slightly bigger carb. The Red Panther was the Honda 50 of its day. IE a cheap reliable go to work bike. It cost around £27 when new and was the bike that kept P&M afloat in the great depression. they made something like 2p profit on each bike they sold.

Its should look like this


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/red4.jpg


They were made from about 1932 up until after WWII when the stopped making them after they had used all the bits up they had. They did make various trial bikes based on the model and in fact won a gold award in the 1934 ISDT

( International six day Trial)

Here is a 1947 publicity shot of a post war panther trial bike.


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Whitcliffe2C_Cleckheaton2C_England2C_GB_1-1_1946.jpg


The Red Panther was made during very tough trading conditions due to the depression so usually was made with what ever spares they could get. So it would seem there is not one year which is alike. they made something like 17000 of these bikes and there are still a fair few around. They are considered the best "lightweight" panthers to own( much better than the post war bikes) . They had various gearboxes fitted and could still be purchased with hand change up until WWII even when everyone else had gone to foot change. The forks are Webb medium weight forks (a very well known and good make of forks) and the hubs are British hub company hubs ( as fitted to numerous bikes pre and post WWII).


They even made and sold a small sidecar for these bikes. Once trading conditions eased then they decided to make a more "sporty" version. So the Redwing range was designed and built. In essence it was the same rolling chassis fitted with a slightly different engine and a 4 speed foot change burman BA gearbox. In 1938 they made a twin port version of the Redwing ( as twin port bikes look sporty and all sports bike need twin ports). Which is the engine i have picked up for my new bike. Many years ago when I was first riding my trail bike (around 1975 I think) it was fitted with the 3 speed box I now own. But we bought another gear box of an old famous racer called Phil Heath who was big in The taverners section back in the day. The gearbox just happened to be a 4 speed BA box.


Here is my Red Panther in about 1974 being ridden by the previous owner. Note the hand change lever on the tank.

http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/rp.jpg



So I have ended up with the 4 speed box in my trail bike and will fit the 3 speed box in the RedWing. I have been wanting a twin port pre war hand change bike for years and due to fate I have ended up with one

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Another post about the bike. These are not written in the order I have built the bike but it matters not for bits like this. As I was camping over at our Founders day event last year it meant I could have a wander round the auto jumble before Joe public turned up and I needed to work. As I am one of the main people who run this event then once it starts its manic til dinner.

I was on the look out for a Lucas magneto for my new project ( which I hadn't even actually got in my sweaty paws yet).


I spotted an old knackered Lucas magneto of the type I could make fit for £45 (I hoped). So I snatched it up and didn't even try to haggle. It span but that was it. No spark. But there is a thriving restoration scene for old brit bikes so no spark is not an issue. After a short while milling a block of aluminium down at work and drilling a couple of holes the magneto was adapted to fit. I also had to make a spacer up to fit a driving gear off a later lightweight but after a short while the mag was all ready to go on the bike.


A quick call to APL magnetos and the mag was winging its way to them to be totally rebuilt.


Here is the result


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/2014-01-22_18_37_54.jpg


A totally rebuilt magneto with a 2 year warranty and all the old bits returned with the magneto so you can see what he has replaced. Its been rewound and had a new condenser fitted. It gives out a hell of a belt if you stick your finger in the pick up now :lol: All for the sum of £150 which includes postage and the HT lead and coil.


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/images/smilies/leghump.gif


For those who don't know many old engines used magnetos to fire the sparks. Apparently a magneto gives a better spark at high revs but a worse spark at low revs than a coil ignition. There is a set of points under the chrome cap on the LH side and the HT lead is held in the black plastic pick up on the RH side and magic happens in between to make the high tension spark.

Due to fitting this magneto I will not need a battery or any wiring at all. All I need to do is time the engine and then mount the magneto. Tap the gear onto the taper and then tighten the nut up attach the HT lead and the Ignition is good to go.


I have an APL rebuilt magneto on my trial bike and that hasn't missed a beat in the 4 years its been fitted.

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I have decided I will write these as I wrote them on another forum. So any issues I have had I will answer over a couple of posts as if I am sorting them out. As I have a fair bit of work that has been done to this bike in the last few months. So it would be boring for you to know that I have had an issue and its sorted all in the same post.


So back to my initial build to see what's missing. Once I had the frame and forks in my sweaty palms I noticed that the frame was the same but ever so slightly different to my trial bike. For one thing it was made out of smaller tubing 28mm instead of 32mm like my 1937 frame and on closer inspection the tank mount is in a slightly different place to my 1937 tank.

See the image below.

http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/tank.jpg


Can you see how the rear tank mount if about 75mm further back than the mount on the frame. In fact the tank mount on the frame is actually in the way of the throttle cable.


ARSE

So much head scratching took place.

Also the gearbox mounting holes were 3/8" instead of 1/2". That's easily sorted by drilling the lower holes out and then filing the adjustment slot out bigger at the top of the gearbox plates. Plus there seemed to be a bush in the RH plate and some sort of threaded bolt adjustment on the gear box. The gearboxes and back wheel on the later bikes are adjusted by cams pressing against pins( back wheel) of the footrest mounting tubes for the gearbox. Plus there were no pillion rest mounts on the frame either.


But then I noticed that the top yoke on the forks was also different. The handlebars are clamped into the top yoke casting on my trial bike but there are castings which attach to the top yoke and clamp the bars on the "new" forks. Also the trial forks have steering stops fitted to the bottom yoke but the new forks have domed nuts in the frame to act as stops.


So a bit of detective work was needed. Its a good job I am a member of the owners club. I did consider that I could butcher this frame and make it fit my bits. But I decided to hold back and get some other opinions.

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So after much searching around on various forums which are Panther related I have an answer for my frame. It would appear the frame and forks date from around 1934. hence the different steering stops and thinner tubing. Plus the earlier tank is slightly smaller. These bikes also had a Sturmey Archer gearbox fitted. This needed a bush in the RH gearbox plate to fit a bell crank to clear the rear brake rod. Which is mounted on the Rh side on hand change bikes. They also had threaded gearbox adjusters.


So I am still undecided if I should hack this frame about a bit to make my bits fit. But no matter I have plenty to be going on with until I decide what to do. So the first job is to make some gearbox mounting spindles, adjustment cams and spacers. These are made using a combination of my lathe and drill at home and the machinery at work( I work in an engineering shop so have access to a fair bit of stuff).

All of these have been made in stainless steel as I work with it most of the time anyway and it would be rude not to. It wasn't until I drilled out the plates and then filed out the slots I noticed another major issue.


See below

http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/cam~0.jpg


The bloody snail cams that should press against the footrest mount are nowhere near the bloody footrest. AAARRRGGGHHHH

So it would seem that the footrests are also in a slightly different place on 1934 frames as well. So thats one more thing I will have to decide on how to proceed.

But its looking like moving the rear tank mount and now either making new gearbox plates or filling the hole and moving the footrests closer to the gear box.


oh and I have managed to track down a fairly good rear hub for £40 of ebay as I didn't have one. I have all the other bits but not the hub. The only problem is that the rear brake shoes didn't quite fit so I had to tweak them to fit.I have also had a very nice package with some new spares from the Panther owners club. A set of footrests and rear sprocket and a few bits a pieces for my gear box. IE kickstart return spring, kick start quadrant gear and few other items.

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Yes we shall have to meet up this year. Keep the 19th 20th July free for our Founders day do mate. If you fancy a ride out in sept then I am organising our Taverners road trial again this year. Its a 90 odd mile run on the 21st September starting at the gliding centre in Husbands Bosworth. We have a 50 mile morning run following a route sheet. Then lunch at the club house then a 40 odd mile afternoon run. All for the sum of £5. The meal alone would cost you £7 at the club so its a bit of a bargain.

Some of the bikes from previous events


P1000581.JPG


P1000591.JPG


P1000564.JPG


013.JPG


037.JPG


034.JPG


I will post on this forum about this event. Last year we had nearly 100 bike out on the day ranging from a 1916 Triumph up to a 2009 bonnie. I am just in the process of sorting the morning road route out.


Check out this page for more info


http://www.thetaverners.com/road.htm

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Fantastic, mate! Keep me informed.


Taverners? Where are you guys based, put of interest?

 

Leicester but we get around . We have loads of events on over the summer. We are a section of the VMCC. Check out the calender on the web site.

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Well good news has been had. After a bit of asking around on panther forums I have had a very nice offer of a later frame in a straight swap for my earlier frame. So I will be keeping the forks to fit my frame and then all my other bits should fit straight on. I have also stripped the gearbox down and replaced some worn out bearings. I have a complete clutch which I obtained after an advert in the VMCC magazine as my clutch was missing a few bits. The new clutch was £50 all in. So I should be able to make a good one up out of the bits. I have also been offered another gearbox and clutch which is complete. So am in 2 minds about getting these as well.


The wheel hubs have been bored out at work to take modern metric bearings as they should be cup and cone bearings ( the same style as fitted to push bike wheels). The wheel bearings work out at about £20 for 4 from my local bearing supplier. I am going to have to make new spindles for these and new spacers to line everything up. But there have been lots of bits of stainless steel fall into my lunch box at work.


I have taken the forks apart and they are a bit worn. So will need bushing and new spindles making. I have spoken to a very nice man who repairs these forks and he quoted me about £300 to look at my forks re bush and make new spindles and also supply all new nuts and washers so they come back like new. I will just need to get them painted.


I am also in 2 minds about what to do with the frame and bits. I am not a fan of powder coating as this allows water to get under it due to being porous. I may have get the frame blasted and then primed and then have a go with this paint a few in my club have used. It used to be called ICI transport paint. The good thing is that its very fluid when you paint it so it can be brush painted and then it flows to remove the brush marks. I have seen some very nice paint jobs done in peoples garages with this stuff.

Edited by Anonymous
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Looking for this to be a minter once you're finished with it then bud?

 

No mate not a minter. But nice. Its going to be a bitza anyway so there is no point in a spotless job. My bikes are for riding and not sitting in the garage dreaming how much money they are worth. It should have a chrome tank with painted panels. But I am not spending £1000 getting a tank done.


I hate people who say "but its worth too much to ride" . Get the bloody thing out of the garage and use it for what it was built for. If its just sat there its a not a bike but a lump of steel.

AAARRRRGGGHHHHH


I spoke to a guy today with some scooters .I was telling him about our road runs and he said well mine are worth about £8000 each so are to valuable to ride. WTF :roll:

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I've got say that this is a really interesting thread. I will admit that I've got two left hands and close to zero know-how in comparison, which makes it all the more fascinating. So: big thumbs up for this awesome project and your attitude! Good luck!

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GOOD news

My new 70 year old clutch came . Its all there and looks in very good nick. So I happily skipped out to my garage to see about making a good one up out of all my bits.


You know that walking in treacle feeling you sometimes get. Well I bloody well got it today. The Clutch is not an RP clutch but its off a BA box. So its about 1/2" (12mm) bigger and has a bigger spline as well where it mounts so its no use.

AAARRRGGGHHHH.

In fact there is nothing I can use from this clutch. But after calming down a bit I thought "well its the same clutch as fitted to my trial bike so its worth keeping for the spares anyway". After a bit more investigation I have decided to fit this clutch to my trial bike. as this new clutch even has a set of rubber cush drive washers in the back. Whereas my Trial Panther has not got any sort of cush drive at all at the moment. So its a bit harsh and jumpy at low speeds. So its not £50 wasted.


I have also contacted the person who said he has a complete clutch and gearbox for sale. He wants £100 for the lot so am going over to pick them up.

I also phoned another girder fork repairer up and he said £120 to fit new bushes in my forks and make 4 spindles up. Thats more like my sort of price so I will be dropping my forks off soon.


God this bike is hard work at the moment. But the good news is my front hub now fits my forks after me making a new wheel spindle and spacers up. I have also knocked up a front brake lever. But I am not happy with it so will make another one.

http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/DSC_1007.JPG


and the rear wheel is half way through fitting. That's more difficult as I need to line both sets of chains up. So the gearbox has been spaced out and now the wheel can be sorted.

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Well I managed to pick up my "complete " gearbox and clutch that I was offered. It was complete apart from some missing bits :roll: but had all of the clutch bits I needed. It did look like it had a hard life and in fact once i took the clutch apart I found this.


http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/2013-11-12_18_08_36.jpg


For those who don't know what they are looking at we have the clutch drum and inner drum. the metal plates engage with the inner drum and the cork( yes cork as in wine bottle) insert plates engage with the other drum. The grooves you can see in both parts are where the clutch plates are so worn that they have been spinning round over many many miles. So both these bits are scrap. But then we are talking nearly 80 year old parts here so its to be expected.




http://www.russianbike.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/2013-11-12_18_09_04.jpg


Here is one of the cork plates. The tang sticking out should be square .


But when I lifted the inspection plate on the top of the gearbox it was still full of grease and oil. It turned and seemed to engage all 3 gears. The gears look in good nick and it has the impossible to get ( so I have found out as the ratchet is smaller on RP boxes ) kick start ratchet mechanism. I will take a look at both boxes and make a good one up out of the pair. So even though its not complete I am more than happy. I am just missing the small gear lever which is connected to the rod which the hand change fits on. I have made 2 at work but both are crap. I can't get any details of the hole centres on this item and given that the hand change is in a "gate" on the tank. Then if I get this figure wrong I will not get all the gears.


I can see me contacting the spares guy in the owners club with regard these matters.

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Well I swapped frames with someone for a later one. The good news is all my bits now fit straight on but the frame is in a lot worse state than mine. It looks like its been stood in a very damp garage so is covered in massive pitting. Its sound but looks bad. So much filling will be needed when I get round to painting it. I also stripped both gearboxes down to see about sorting all the best bits out.


But the one I picked up recently has got ever so slightly different width gears so I can't use them but everything else is the same. I managed to swap the phozy bronze bushes as they were not worn like my original box. Once I assembled the gearbox I found I have a bent mainshaft. It would appear all these boxes now have bent mainshafts after all these years and apparently the Panther owners club have some new ones in stock for £50 so that another thing to order.


I have also found out that to get a log book for this bike all I need to do is photograph the frame number and engine number and then once the bike is ready to put on the road I tell the owners club and supply the photos. They then give me a dating certificate which I then send to the DVLA and they give me an age related number. So no tax to pay and no need for an MOT.

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