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I don't use the back brake...


ForestRunner
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You don't really want your forks to fully compress and bottom out. If they do then you probably need to adjust your suspension or fit stiffer springs.

Using the rear brake won't cause the front to be any less efficient so as long as the rear tyre is still in contact with the road, you may as well be using the rear brake to help slow you down.

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You don't really want your forks to fully compress and bottom out. If they do then you probably need to adjust your suspension or fit stiffer springs.

 

And if you want to get really nobby, it also depends what type of spring you have in the forks - i.e. progressive or linear.

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You don't really want your forks to fully compress and bottom out. If they do then you probably need to adjust your suspension or fit stiffer springs.

Using the rear brake won't cause the front to be any less efficient so as long as the rear tyre is still in contact with the road, you may as well be using the rear brake to help slow you down.

 

To your first point - fully compressing the front forks will mean maximum load on the tyre, maximum compression, and so maximum grip which is what I would want. I can't see why anyone would want anything else if they needed to stop quickly. In fact, if I put my bike in 'Rain' mode it automatically softens the suspension, making it easier to compress the forks as an aide to braking in the wet.


To your second point - if I was able to use my rear brake without locking the wheel/triggering ABS then I wouldn't be braking anywhere near as hard as my bike can achieve.


In both cases it's basic physics at play.

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You don't really want your forks to fully compress and bottom out. If they do then you probably need to adjust your suspension or fit stiffer springs.

Using the rear brake won't cause the front to be any less efficient so as long as the rear tyre is still in contact with the road, you may as well be using the rear brake to help slow you down.

 

To your first point - fully compressing the front forks will mean maximum load on the tyre, maximum compression, and so maximum grip which is what I would want. I can't see why anyone would want anything else if they needed to stop quickly. In fact, if I put my bike in 'Rain' mode it automatically softens the suspension, making it easier to compress the forks as an aide to braking in the wet.


To your second point - if I was able to use my rear brake without locking the wheel/triggering ABS then I wouldn't be braking anywhere near as hard as my bike can achieve.


In both cases it's basic physics at play.

 

If your forks fully compress under braking and you then hit a bump in the road. You have no suspension left to compensate and you will hit the deck.


Rain mode softens suspension to aid weight transfer as you can't brake as hard. It still won't let you bottom out.

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You don't really want your forks to fully compress and bottom out. If they do then you probably need to adjust your suspension or fit stiffer springs.

Using the rear brake won't cause the front to be any less efficient so as long as the rear tyre is still in contact with the road, you may as well be using the rear brake to help slow you down.

 

To your first point - fully compressing the front forks will mean maximum load on the tyre, maximum compression, and so maximum grip which is what I would want. I can't see why anyone would want anything else if they needed to stop quickly. In fact, if I put my bike in 'Rain' mode it automatically softens the suspension, making it easier to compress the forks as an aide to braking in the wet.


To your second point - if I was able to use my rear brake without locking the wheel/triggering ABS then I wouldn't be braking anywhere near as hard as my bike can achieve.


In both cases it's basic physics at play.

 

You always want your suspension to follow the contours of the road. With the forks fully bottomed out you are using the tyre flex as suspension. Not a good idea as tyres are not designed to act as suspension.

You need to understand the concept of sprung and unsprung mass. You want to keep unsprung mass to a minimum in order for your suspension to work well, hence light weight wheels..

With forks fully bottomed out, your unsprung mass effectively increased from a few kg (weight of wheel and tyre and brakes) to many hundreds of kg (total weight of the bike plus rider) this then causes the tyres to start acting as suspension..


Since we are talking physics, tyres are essentially an undamped spring, so they are able to recoil at almost the same rate they are compressed and since they are undamped they will oscillate.


Because they are an undamped system the recoil from the tyre can cause the front tyre to unload rapidly lifting the front of the bike up thus reducing the contact patch size and reducing your brake efficiency. Your front tyre will skip across the road surface rather than following the contours.


Your tyre pressure will dictate the maximum contact patch for the bike and rider weight, so the ideal setups is to brake hard enough to achieve maximum contact patch size whilst still leaving some suspension travel to soak up bumps in the road. This will mean if you hit a bump under hard braking the force is absorbed and damped by the forks keeping the front tyre in contact with the ground rather than being absorbed and recoiled by the tyre causing the contact patch to reduce...



Triggering the rear ABS doesn't make the front brakes brake less.

They are two independent braking systems so you can be braking as hard as you like on both brakes without reducing the braking force generated by the other.


In a full emergency stop situation you're not initially going to get much braking from the rear due to the rapid weight transfer to the front, but any time the rear tyre is on the ground, you may as well be standing on the brake pedal and letting the ABS decide how much braking it's going to allow the rear to do.

That's the whole point of ABS brakes. Brake really really hard and let the computer calculate the maximum braking allowed by the tyres and road conditions.

My bike has anti flip to stop me flipping the bike over forwards on the brakes, something that's very possible on sports bikes if you snatch the front brake. But again not a problem on mine as the computer won't let me flip the bike over.

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I can see this is going to just keep going round in circles - i.e. fairly pointless as everyone has their own opinion which clearly they are going to stick with irrespective. But that's the beauty of opinions - everyone is entitled to one.


I'm going to stick with what I know works. I strongly recommend that everyone else take their bike out onto a straight, quiet piece of road and make your own mind up following some actual practical experimentation.

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I hardly ever touch the back brake unless it's an emergency, the front brake and down shifting through the gears correctly put's more than enough stopping force into the back wheel to slow things down.

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I can see this is going to just keep going round in circles - i.e. fairly pointless as everyone has their own opinion which clearly they are going to stick with irrespective. But that's the beauty of opinions - everyone is entitled to one.


I'm going to stick with what I know works. I strongly recommend that everyone else take their bike out onto a straight, quiet piece of road and make your own mind up following some actual practical experimentation.

 

The great thing about physics is that it will always work. It doesn't give a crap about yours or anyone elses opinion.


Fully bottomed out suspension is not the optimal way to brake - that is a well proven fact and why racing suspension costs more than a most road bikes.


Once again, if your suspension is bottoming out, you need it adjusting or stiffer springs. Take that onboard or don't, I really don't care!!

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Wow, touchy or what? I completely get that what you are saying makes sense on a track, which is why racing suspension is entirely different from road suspension.

On a road, going in a straight line, you can ride a bike with no suspension at all and as long as the wheels are going round it will not fall over when you hit a bump (it'll just be damned uncomfortable).


So, how about we agree to differ and - like I suggested - let people go out and try braking with the front brake only or with a mix of the two and see which works better ... for them. In the end it's about what works in practise, not about interpretations of physics theory. Please feel free to have the last word, I'm happy to have shared my opinion and 'on the road' experience and I'll bow out and leave the floor to you.

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Wow, touchy or what? I completely get that what you are saying makes sense on a track, which is why racing suspension is entirely different from road suspension.

On a road, going in a straight line, you can ride a bike with no suspension at all and as long as the wheels are going round it will not fall over when you hit a bump (it'll just be damned uncomfortable).


So, how about we agree to differ and - like I suggested - let people go out and try braking with the front brake only or with a mix of the two and see which works better ... for them. In the end it's about what works in practise, not about interpretations of physics theory. Please feel free to have the last word, I'm happy to have shared my opinion and 'on the road' experience and I'll bow out and leave the floor to you.

 

Final and correct words. To anyone finding this thread , ignore the advice of the rider who's probably never ridden on anything other than tarmac and think about the actual science around braking.

If bottoming out your forks was a good idea, why don't they build forks that just lock up when you pull the brake lever??

Why allow the front of the bike to dive so much altering the geometry when according to our friend solid forks are best?? Because it's not true that's why!


Roads are more bumpy than race tracks hence the reason for more suspension travel and more ground clearance than a race bike.

You are basically telling people to ignore actual science and do what they feel works best with no scientific method of measuring the results.. let their blood be on your hands!


I actually don't think you are bottoming out your forks. I think your think you are, but I bet you're not because if you were the bike would feel terrible.


You know you are wrong, you know the science all points to the opposite of what you're saying and you know you can't hold a sensible debate about it, hence your dismissive last message..

Just Google it if you don't want to listen to me. Bottomed out front (or rear) suspension is never a good thing and you should certainly not be advising people to do it.

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Front wheel on the floor = front brake

Front wheel off the floor = back brake


:D

As manuel would say KEH !


Surely you mean

Front wheel on the floor = front brake

Or

Back wheel off the floor = Front Brake

 

You've never had a wheelie go bad have you.. with the front wheel in the air, the rear brake is your lifeline!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Im only just starting to use my back brake i tend to use my front to bring my speed down along with engine breaking and then as i get to a slower speed i will start to ease the back brake in along with the front


I think using my back and front together on my first off made me overly wary of it as the driver behind me, also a biker she told me saw my bike wheel lock and spin me out.


Ive had a few rear wheel skids while i was trying to work out it out but nothing to bad, just let the brake off and corrects itself :).


so my experience of back brake so far is to use it only for low speed manoeuvres or in conjunction with the front brake at below 40mph any higher speed for me it seems to do very little or lock and skid.


2 months in saddle just sharing my experiences take it as you will :lol: :lol:


*as an edit i forgot to say ive never had a front forks bottom out on me, or even close even with quite quick stops, if thats cause im using the back brake as well or cause just wasnt fast enough idk :).

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  • 11 months later...

Guys


Forget physics arguments and anything else it boils down to this, you got two brakes, a front brake and back brake.


When you are riding two up and a Tool cuts in front of you and stops and you have moments to come to a complete emergency stop at full effort making your bike stand on its nose, you had better be using both brakes because your arse will be in your hands using front brake alone.


Get in the habit so it becomes second nature or you will be pushing up daisys one day.

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  • 1 month later...

Just simply remember that 70% of pressure should be on your front brake, and 30% on the back one. I have only been riding for a month and remembering this has been crucial for me to safely slow down from high speeds. If you put all of the pressure on one brake, you will soon be repairing it in no time (you may also experience steering wobbles - they aren't fun :( ) Once you have been riding for some time you will soon get the hang of it.

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