CBT or DAS?

Does doing a CBT then learning on a 125cc bike for a few months prepare me better to pass DAS and overall become a better more skilled rider or does it not make any difference to doing CBT then straight to DAS? I don’t wanna rush just to pass, but not sure if buying a 125cc tax insurance etc will be wasted money when it might not make a difference. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated?

Btw, forgot to mention last year I had some taster sessions on a 125cc with a riding instructor, 1st lesson I wheelied the bike and fell off on a grass verge, luckily but the bike landed on my leg and the instructor laughed, I had a couple more taster sessions but I didn’t get the impression the instructor was too bothered about being there, never seemed to learn anything really and I think he got me riding the bike too quick to figure out where things were on the bike. So I stopped and not bothered since as my other local riding centre closed down, recently found a new riding centre and looking to book my CBT, I’m a complete noob to riding but wanted to do this for years and never been put off doing it, only money and finding a good riding instructor close by has stopped me.

The choice in your title is not mutually exclusive. You HAVE to do the CBT before any further training. Once you have done the CBT you can ride a 125cc bike with L-Plates for up to two years before retaking the CBT, no M-ways and no pillions. Depending on your age most people over 24 years of age tend to do the DAS, if they can afford it, as it allows you to go directly to a larger engined bike, which most find more satisfying and often easier to ride.

Finding a good instructor is a good idea.

Thanks for the comment, yeah I know CBT is compulsory no matter which route anyone goes down but it’s regarding doing CBT and then learning on a 125 for a while then taking DAS or CBT then straight to DAS, I wasn’t sure if learning on a 125 for a while is more beneficial or just wasting money.

The choice in your title is not mutually exclusive. You HAVE to do the CBT before any further training. Once you have done the CBT you can ride a 125cc bike with L-Plates for up to two years before retaking the CBT, no M-ways and no pillions. Depending on your age most people over 24 years of age tend to do the DAS, if they can afford it, as it allows you to go directly to a larger engined bike, which most find more satisfying and often easier to ride.

Finding a good instructor is a good idea.

Thanks for the comment, yeah I know CBT is compulsory no matter which route anyone goes down but it’s regarding doing CBT and then learning on a 125 for a while then taking DAS or CBT then straight to DAS, I wasn’t sure if learning on a 125 for a while is more beneficial or just wasting money.

Do the DAS if your are over 24

You'll possibly pick up bad habits riding a 125 because the cbt is so basic. Only reason I see to not do a das straight away is if you're not sure riding is for you and don't want to waste the das money if not. Either way book and doing your cbt first then see how you feel after the day before booking das.

Just to put the other point of view, getting a few months experience on the road before MODS 1 & 2 isn't nesessarily a bad idea....it allows you to develop the muscle memory you need to ride any machine and you're learning to read the road, gaining confidence and experience. It will also give you a chance to experience things like ride planning in a less pressurised environment, if that makes sense. When you've got people who've obviously been down the DAS route wondering whether to buy the XYZ 1000 or the ABS 900 but.......they can't change gear without having to think about it? And if they can't change gear without having to think about it, are they really ready for the outside lane of a busy motorway during the rush hour, or a fast A road with a series of tightening bends in quick succession? Don't think so.

And it's not just gear changing. Throttle, brakes, lifesavers, stopping, starting - all should be instinctive. You should be able to do this stuff without thinking about it. If you are still having to think about it, then I would venture to suggest that having in excess of 100 Bhp between your knees while you're thinking probably isn't a great idea. I know some people will vehemently disagree with this somewhat conservative philosophy, but over the years, I have seen:

1. A person on a Monster "threepenny-bitting" round bends (for those of you born after 1971, think 50 or 20 pee-ing it round bends.). During the pre-ride walk round, I had had a look at the chicken strips on the rear tyre. There were none - it had been run right up to thd edge so I assumed (yes, I know!) that the rider knew how to take a bend. Turned out the rider had just bought it 2nd hand but was unsure as to " how far you could lean it over". They were scared of it.

2. Someone who was riding, IIRC, a Hornet. They had developed a habit of starting off, running up the box and leaving it in top as long as possible. Riding it like a giant automatic scooter - except it wasn't, snd the bike didn't like it.

So what I'm saying is that sometimes, it can be good to progress up the horsepower path in a natural, progressive and developmental way rather than going big and complex as fast as possible - 'cos most people can't cope with it.

Just my 2p worth.

S23

Just to put the other point of view, getting a few months experience on the road before MODS 1 & 2 isn't nesessarily a bad idea....it allows you to develop the muscle memory you need to ride any machine and you're learning to read the road, gaining confidence and experience. It will also give you a chance to experience things like ride planning in a less pressurised environment, if that makes sense. When you've got people who've obviously been down the DAS route wondering whether to buy the XYZ 1000 or the ABS 900 but.......they can't change gear without having to think about it? And if they can't change gear without having to think about it, are they really ready for the outside lane of a busy motorway during the rush hour, or a fast A road with a series of tightening bends in quick succession? Don't think so.

And it's not just gear changing. Throttle, brakes, lifesavers, stopping, starting - all should be instinctive. You should be able to do this stuff without thinking about it. If you are still having to think about it, then I would venture to suggest that having in excess of 100 Bhp between your knees while you're thinking probably isn't a great idea. I know some people will vehemently disagree with this somewhat conservative philosophy, but over the years, I have seen:

1. A person on a Monster "threepenny-bitting" round bends (for those of you born after 1971, think 50 or 20 pee-ing it round bends.). During the pre-ride walk round, I had had a look at the chicken strips on the rear tyre. There were none - it had been run right up to thd edge so I assumed (yes, I know!) that the rider knew how to take a bend. Turned out the rider had just bought it 2nd hand but was unsure as to " how far you could lean it over". They were scared of it.

2. Someone who was riding, IIRC, a Hornet. They had developed a habit of starting off, running up the box and leaving it in top as long as possible. Riding it like a giant automatic scooter - except it wasn't, snd the bike didn't like it.

So what I'm saying is that sometimes, it can be good to progress up the horsepower path in a natural, progressive and developmental way rather than going big and complex as fast as possible - 'cos most people can't cope with it.

Just my 2p worth.

S23

I’m a bit older and wiser to jump straight onto a 1000cc bike, I’d probably buy an SV650 and have it a while before considering buying another bike at whatever power. Thanks for your 2p

Just to put the other point of view, getting a few months experience on the road before MODS 1 & 2 isn't nesessarily a bad idea....it allows you to develop the muscle memory you need to ride any machine and you're learning to read the road, gaining confidence and experience. It will also give you a chance to experience things like ride planning in a less pressurised environment, if that makes sense. When you've got people who've obviously been down the DAS route wondering whether to buy the XYZ 1000 or the ABS 900 but.......they can't change gear without having to think about it? And if they can't change gear without having to think about it, are they really ready for the outside lane of a busy motorway during the rush hour, or a fast A road with a series of tightening bends in quick succession? Don't think so.

And it's not just gear changing. Throttle, brakes, lifesavers, stopping, starting - all should be instinctive. You should be able to do this stuff without thinking about it. If you are still having to think about it, then I would venture to suggest that having in excess of 100 Bhp between your knees while you're thinking probably isn't a great idea. I know some people will vehemently disagree with this somewhat conservative philosophy, but over the years, I have seen:

1. A person on a Monster "threepenny-bitting" round bends (for those of you born after 1971, think 50 or 20 pee-ing it round bends.). During the pre-ride walk round, I had had a look at the chicken strips on the rear tyre. There were none - it had been run right up to thd edge so I assumed (yes, I know!) that the rider knew how to take a bend. Turned out the rider had just bought it 2nd hand but was unsure as to " how far you could lean it over". They were scared of it.

2. Someone who was riding, IIRC, a Hornet. They had developed a habit of starting off, running up the box and leaving it in top as long as possible. Riding it like a giant automatic scooter - except it wasn't, snd the bike didn't like it.

So what I'm saying is that sometimes, it can be good to progress up the horsepower path in a natural, progressive and developmental way rather than going big and complex as fast as possible - 'cos most people can't cope with it.

Just my 2p worth.

S23

 

I’m a bit older and wiser to jump straight onto a 1000cc bike, I’d probably buy an SV650 and have it a while before considering buying another bike at whatever power. Thanks for your 2p

I was probably a lot older and wiser but I had fun on the 125 before doing das and have no regrets.

No point torturing yourself on a 125, get the DAS done.

I’m three months in to riding my 125 on a CBT and thinking of doing my DAS next year. At the moment I am thinking I will stick with the 125 after passing.

Main reasons for this are:

For the journeys i am riding it is doing the job fantastically. I am commuting in and around Birmingham mostly. I enjoy the bike and I am enjoying learning to ride on it. I feel like a learner/probationer at the moment.

I’m paying the bike off and could not justify throwing away all the depreciation (a lot it’s a Chinese bike)

The cost of the DAS is 800 pounds I do not have.

I could well imagine I would like a bigger bike, but then I like my bike.

I don’t do much dual carriageway riding. The little I do it is enough. If I did a lot I would want a bigger bike sooner. I don’t do much big travel and again if I do I can imagine I would want a bigger bike sooner.

You definitely need to build your riding skills up on a 125 machine for a few months. I can't believe in today's PC world you can just jump on a big motorcycle, having never ridden anything and take a test after a few lessons! If you somehow pass the test you will be a danger to yourself and other road users. My 2p worth

You definitely need to build your riding skills up on a 125 machine for a few months. I can't believe in today's PC world you can just jump on a big motorcycle, having never ridden anything and take a test after a few lessons! If you somehow pass the test you will be a danger to yourself and other road users. My 2p worth

'a few lessons' - it's about 25 hours in total - same average as a car. Bikers do crash more but that could be from factors other than lack of skill (and lots of people on L plates I'm sure).

It's up to you, of course and what sort of riding you plan to do afterwards. Unless it's for short distance commuting, I would suggest DAS. The tests are fairly demanding and need good bike control, particularly MOD 1. The important thing is to find a good instructor who teaches you to ride and not just pass a test. They are out there.

I think someone who has been trained properly and passed mod 1 and 2, riding a bigger bike is safer on the road than someone with a few hours of instruction on a 125

You definitely need to build your riding skills up on a 125 machine for a few months. I can't believe in today's PC world you can just jump on a big motorcycle, having never ridden anything and take a test after a few lessons! If you somehow pass the test you will be a danger to yourself and other road users. My 2p worth

I don't think that you're giving the current test sufficient credit......I don't think you can just fluke the 2-part test....... In some ways your comment is contradictory. ....to gain a CBT you just need to rock up at a training centre have a couple of hours tuition and then sent on your merry way.......and plenty of the modern 125's can hit 60-70mph..... The DAS is a more intensive training with a 2-part test coupled with a CBT and the Theory test......so, all-in-all significantly more training and preparation for sending a new rider out onto the road on their own. Another advantage of doing the DAS and getting a bigger bike is the availability of further training (Bikesafe, IAM, RoSPA, etc).

Anyway....that's just my 2p's worth.....

You definitely need to build your riding skills up on a 125 machine for a few months. I can't believe in today's PC world you can just jump on a big motorcycle, having never ridden anything and take a test after a few lessons! If you somehow pass the test you will be a danger to yourself and other road users. My 2p worth

 

I don't think that you're giving the current test sufficient credit......I don't think you can just fluke the 2-part test....... In some ways your comment is contradictory. ....to gain a CBT you just need to rock up at a training centre have a couple of hours tuition and then sent on your merry way.......and plenty of the modern 125's can hit 60-70mph..... The DAS is a more intensive training with a 2-part test coupled with a CBT and the Theory test......so, all-in-all significantly more training and preparation for sending a new rider out onto the road on their own. Another advantage of doing the DAS and getting a bigger bike is the availability of further training (Bikesafe, IAM, RoSPA, etc).

Anyway....that's just my 2p's worth.....

You definitely need to build your riding skills up on a 125 machine for a few months. I can't believe in today's PC world you can just jump on a big motorcycle, having never ridden anything and take a test after a few lessons! If you somehow pass the test you will be a danger to yourself and other road users. My 2p worth

 

'a few lessons' - it's about 25 hours in total - same average as a car. Bikers do crash more but that could be from factors other than lack of skill (and lots of people on L plates I'm sure).

Maybe then. But having lessons isn't the same as riding a bike every day, the bike eventually feels part of your own body and that's when you're getting good at it.

Also if you get your own 125 you ride it without any pressure, you aren't being watched by an instructor and it builds your confidence. I bought an RD125 to get good on and flew through the test easy peasy.

Was years ago mind, I'm thoroughly out of date

It’s a mixed bag of opinions, I’ve been toing and froing between the 2, I definately will not be getting a bike to ride as fast as the speed of sound, just for fun at weekends etc, I have no desire to be the next Rossi. I just want to be the best prepared and skilled rider I can be. Was just going to book a CBT this week and buy a cheap 125 until next spring and then do the DAS, then I thought just do both next spring and save for an SV650

Thanks for your replies, still mulling it over. I don’t know what the standard way, if there is one, is to learn.

You definitely need to build your riding skills up on a 125 machine for a few months. I can't believe in today's PC world you can just jump on a big motorcycle, having never ridden anything and take a test after a few lessons! If you somehow pass the test you will be a danger to yourself and other road users. My 2p worth

 

I don't think that you're giving the current test sufficient credit......I don't think you can just fluke the 2-part test....... In some ways your comment is contradictory. ....to gain a CBT you just need to rock up at a training centre have a couple of hours tuition and then sent on your merry way.......and plenty of the modern 125's can hit 60-70mph..... The DAS is a more intensive training with a 2-part test coupled with a CBT and the Theory test......so, all-in-all significantly more training and preparation for sending a new rider out onto the road on their own. Another advantage of doing the DAS and getting a bigger bike is the availability of further training (Bikesafe, IAM, RoSPA, etc).

Anyway....that's just my 2p's worth.....

I think the point here is that DAS teaches you how to pass the test(s). It does not necessarily teach you how to ride (in the fullest sense of the word, natch).

Realistically, having done the DAS route, all that would be of any value to the freshly-minted rider seeking further development would be the Bikesafe training. Both IAM and ROSPA demand that riders have achieved and consolidated a level of competence that requires at least 12 months on-the-road experience. Remember what I said in my last post about things having to be instinctive? It's only when you get to that point that you can then start getting riders to give a bit of consideration to how those instinctive reactions could best be applied to meet the needs of more demanding situations.

Both RoSPA and IAM advanced training is based on developing people so that they can apply and ride to what is known as the SYSTEM. What is it? Basically, it can be summed up as IPSGA: Information, Position, Speed, Gear and Acceleration.

Example: You cannot apply IPSGA to any intended manoeuvre unless you understand how to take, use and give Information. How do you know where the most appropriate Position is? What is an appropriate Speed for the circumstances? What Gear is required for where I am and where I want to be? And finally, what change in velocity - what Accelleration - how much, how rapidly - will be required to put me in the right place at the right time at the right speed?

Yep, boring I know, but that's the SYSTEM. If your standard of riding is such that you cannot recognise, process and apply the decisions that need to be made about any of the IPSGA factors identified above, then you will simply be unable to undertake the advanced riding exercises with any hope of success.

And on another note, Yes, modern 125's can do 70-odd mph, but getting up there ain't necessarily an instant experience. The faster things happen, the less time you have to process them. If your basic riding is not instinctive, it is using up processing power that is now not available to sort other, more compelling issues out.

Both IAM and ROSPA demand that riders have achieved and consolidated a level of competence that requires at least 12 months on-the-road experience.

IAM haven't for me...

Both IAM and ROSPA demand that riders have achieved and consolidated a level of competence that requires at least 12 months on-the-road experience.

 

IAM haven't for me...

So what stage have you got to, then? .....And you're right, I should have said "generally requires"....my bad.

I've only just signed up. I emailed the membership secretary of the local group asking how much experience they generally recommended and they said it was up to the individual. Although I did go on a taster ride and got some initial feedback, the idea was I could see if I felt it was for me and if I felt ready. I guess there they would have had a chance to politely put me off if they felt they should

Ah yes, the "taster ride".......I suppose you knew this but it's very much a 2-way process.......FWIW, both of the examples quoted above were encountered on "taster rides".......they didn't pass the Pepsi Challenge.....

So you're on the way then. Good - keep it up - and keep us updated as to how you're getting on.

And to be fair I rode a 125 for a few months. But I do also lump my cycling experience (c. 5k miles a year) into my road use experience. Yes the speeds are different but in terms of anticipation, positioning yourself to be seen etc there are a lot of parallels (if you're doing it right at least)

So to help out the original poster a bit and add my 2p: I did my CBT in March and bought a 125, riding it around for a few months. I'm in my mid-thirties and to this "old man" it seemed sensible, and still does. I totally get the counter views here but that approach just suited my nature.

Yes I got bored of the 125 (I originally planned to ride it for about a year) but the 1000 miles I did were still really useful. My wife has done the same (CBT in March and now riding a 125) and is taking it a bit slower. I don't think there's any harm in doing your CBT and then taking it from there. Until you've sat on a bike you won't necessarily know how you feel about the whole thing.

I think it really varies from person to person.

The year (and counting) I've had 125 and scooters prior to jumping on big bikes were extremely valuable for mine (and others) safety on the road.

I have never suffered an accident, not even dropped the bike, but I got distracted with the 125 once and almost crashed into a stopped car... I can't imagine what would've happened had I been on a bigger bike.

It just feels like a natural progression starting with a 125 and going to something more powerful! I wouldn't advice on buying a 125 if you don't need/want one, but you can always rent one for a couple of weeks after getting your CBT done to get the feeling of the real world of riding a bike on daily-basis.