Jump to content

Advanced training


Recommended Posts

Second ride today. About 75 miles of mainly fast roads, I was cream crackered by the end!


The first ten odd miles of the ride I followed my observer, we then swapped over at a supermarket, leaving I missed a speed limit sign that must have been at the exit and was doing 30, I could see him do a "crank it up" sign in my mirror, I was still unsure of the limit so upped it to 40, only about a mile later to see the sign up ahead for a change to 40... and it being NSL in the other direction. Ah FFS. His feedback later? "We all miss speed signs occasionally", me: "yeah, but it wasn't great to do it within 20 metres of the start of my ride when you've already told me to crack on a bit if I can" :lol:


On the way I'm spotting all my cock ups, you try and put them out of your mind but of course internally you're kicking yourself over them, probably more than you would normally because you know you're being watched. The worst for me was a van pulled out in front of me about 50 metres up the road, but didn't really accelerate. My brain noticed it but didn't massively process it and before I knew it he'd slammed the brakes on hard and then suddenly put the indicator on. I had to brake hard and then take avoiding action up the inside. I was properly kicking myself over that.


35 miles in we stopped and I took my helmet off ready for some frank feedback. Ready to take it on the chin I said "I guess we've got a fair bit to debrief there", to which the answer was "not really, I thought it was quite a good ride down".


Cue me saying "well here's all the stuff I spotted....." :D


But in the main he was happy, he agreed the van had caught me out and I could have reacted quicker, but that I did the right thing in braking hard then swerving around and simply said "we all make mistakes, it happens" and emphasised the other times I'd shown good anticipation and action.


I had a few bits on speed and positioning to work on on the way back, and off we headed for home... but not before he took me down 'zig zag hill'. Yah crikey, steep and with 3 180 degree hairpins...


https://goo.gl/maps/saHo2CGb3RF2


(Here's a vid of someone going down it in a car

%29">
)


He'd briefed me on this beforehand and emphasised staying in my lane and on my side of the road, which I definitely managed although if I do it again I'll try to use a bit less rear brake, I think the bike would be happier if I let it did its thing and trust it a bit more.


Some low sun made some of the final miles pretty hairy, not helped by the specific country roads being quite polished and bouncing the sun off the road into your eyes so I was glad when we parked up back at the start to debrief. Mostly positive and he was pleased that I'd put into action some of the feedback from last time, along with some tips about how to position ready for an overtake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I'm approaching all this as "I want to keep learning after passing my test", so see this time as a great opportunity to get third party feedback. And for that I know there's no point in trying to BS my observer. So if I think there's something that didn't go well I'll mention it. Or alternatively I ask "when we were at x would you have handled that any differently?"


I guess in a way it's nice to say it out loud and have some feedback, even nicer when it's quite a grounded answer along the lines of "nobody's perfect". I doubt many people could ride 75 miles and not make up the odd slip up after all.


As for my speed... My wife asked me that and as I said, I have no fricking idea as I was too petrified to look anywhere else than the road to make sure I got around :lol:


If I was to guesstimate though, I probably entered them at 10mph and you picked up a fair bit of speed as you went towards the apex even whilst feathering the back brake. I was hyper aware that too much rear brake would keep the bike stood up but it's hard to override that when you're facing one of those tight downhill hairpins....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Cue me saying "well here's all the stuff I spotted....." :D


2. ....the van had caught me out and I could have reacted quicker, but that I did the right thing in braking hard then swerving around and simply said "we all make mistakes, it happens" and emphasised the other times I'd shown good anticipation and action.

 

1. Good. Your most truthful critic is yourself. Just listen to what you're saying.

2. Have a think about this one. By braking and swerving you fixed a problem......that need not have arisen. Not having a go, but this is exactly what reading the road is about. Anticipation. Don't just see - understand what you're seeing, then act on it. But the important thing is, you'll know next time.


Well done for actually going down the road. You WILL benefit from it. This is an investment in your motorcycling future that will keep on paying out!? :thumb:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And that zig-zag hill. Do you think you could get down without touching the brakes?

 

Is that a challenge, :shock: . Include it on the run back from Sammy Millar Museum. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2. Have a think about this one. By braking and swerving you fixed a problem......that need not have arisen. Not having a go, but this is exactly what reading the road is about. Anticipation. Don't just see - understand what you're seeing, then act on it. But the important thing is, you'll know next time.

 

Absolutely, and it's why I brought it straight up with him. It was totally my fault, one of those you clock but don't react. It did catch me out and the thing that saved me was I was leaving a safe following distance.


Like I said he did balance it with a few of the things he'd clearly observed me seeing and reacting to before they got me into a tight spot, so whilst I have definitely reflected on it a lot I'm also not going to let it get me too down.


But yes... I did give myself a mental kicking for it, which I think is a better mindset then "wow my mad epic skillz got me out of that one" and finding myself in that situation a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And that zig-zag hill. Do you think you could get down without touching the brakes?

 

You definitely would have to control speed with your brakes I'm sure, I don't think engine braking alone would do it. I'm sure someone with more skills and experience would prove me wrong!


I just felt I was on the brakes too much rather than feathering off near the apex and letting the bike fall into the corner.


Have you done it? Would love to hear your experiences if you have :) All the motorcycle youtube vids are of riders going UP it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I started my advanced training, I was following my tutor and I thought.."his brake lights aren't working...." - then the penny dropped. Before anyone says so, I know all the books say "engine to go, brakes to slow" or some such sentiment - but - just try riding as if your brakes have failed. DISCLAIMER: OBVIOUSLY IF YOU NEED THEM, THEN BLOODY USE THEM. However, if you try it, you will be amazed at how it makes you look at your riding. Controlling speed with throttle and gears only really makes you think ahead - it develops your "acceleration sense" and makes you very aware of the "gears" bit in IPSGA.


Thinking ahead in more general terms - for example, approaching a roundabout, can you adjust your speed so you don't have to stop but are instead able to slot in with the traffic that's already there (prepare to slow but ready to go)? It's weird how many people seem to think it's OK to approach a roundabout or junction at Warp Five then have to stand on the brakes and squeal to a stop, when if they'd been a bit more measured, they could have smoothly negotiated the hazard with minimum fuss. The best riders are the ones who make their progress down a road look like a swan on a river - it appears to be effortless but you can't see what's going on underneath the water!


The challenge is to turn a box of pieces of string into an unbroken length of smooth cordage - the ride should begin when you turn on the key and end when you turn it off again. It should be a continuum - not a load of disjointed sections.


But that's just my take on it - what do you think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the bits of feedback I got yesterday is "you're exceptionally smooth", and supposedly I move position around the road and adjust speed in quite a graceful way, and everything is done in plenty of time. Which is weird because when you're sat on the bike it can feel a bit different :lol:


Personally I enjoy working out the micro adjustments I can make in my right wrist to shave off just the right amount of speed, to be honest I often find myself bringing the brakes on just a touch to at least show a light to the vehicle behind. I'm sure I can still improve though, I know there's plenty of bends where I scrub off too much speed too early (yes, I know it's better to do that then the opposite!!)


Re. hazards like roundabouts, the method I usually have in my head is "aim to go but plan to stop" which usually seems to serve me well.


But as for braking on zig zag hill, I'll still be amazed if anyone could do it with engine braking alone.... but I'm always willing to be proven wrong :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...

I realised today I hadn't updated this thread for quite a while. So where am I with all this?


Well, I've been out a couple of times but today was my first outing since the end of November. Once winter kicked in I gave it a little break, I had planned to pick it up a touch earlier in the year but as my wife is working most Saturdays getting out on a Sunday relied on both mine and my observer's diaries syncing up, and we couldn't go out in the evenings due to the light levels.


Main things I've had to work on has been that old nugget 'progress'. A combination of coming into motorbiking in my mid-thirties and only having passed my test in August meant that I've had to gain an understanding of planning my overtakes and completing it. It hasn't been that I've needed to calm myself down, actually that I kept finding reasons not to go... in itself not a bad thing I guess, but also gaining an understanding of the acceleration capabilities of my bike. Getting there now though.


Today we went out and it was a group ride. A first for me and a touch of trepidation this morning. My observer and I met up and rode an hour to the meet up point, then we had an hour and a half ride to the lunch stop with the group. We then mutually decided to come straight back ourselves to make sure we weren't back too late, which included some motorway miles (crikey those are dull, eh?)


Things I learnt today: crikey some of those riders can crack on. I was happy to focus on riding my own ride and not get myself into any situations faster than I wanted to, there were a lot of twisty quite narrow roads at NSL and they were going a clear 10mph faster than me around them. I think the main thing I need to concentrate on is rolling on the throttle just a little more to settle the bike around the bend and feel more assured in the handling. But otherwise I was really happy with how I rode on what ended up being around four hours of riding in total.


My observer is now happy to put me forward for my test, he's just told me to focus on a quick right shoulder check as I approach an upward speed limit change, which supposedly assessors are big on at the moment, and left shoulder checks on roundabouts which he says I used to do but appear to have now stopped (but I do check to my right...) I also need to work on explaining situations I was in using 'IPSGA' if asked, but he was happy both with the overtakes I did today and the ones I decided against doing.


So a check ride with another observer just to make sure there's nothing he's missed and then my assessment!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi sounds like you are doing well.


Group rides are a little like marmite love em or hate em. I prefer to leave them, despite having been an observer for a good number of years. I find "group rides" involving 10 or more riders a challenge. Personally I prefer to ride with 3 or 4 riders of a similar standard and who I can trust. The big problem for me with group rides are the riders who push them selves too far, thinking if that rider can do it then I can too. Hopefully they just have a brown trouser moment and then see sense but not all do.


We put on one "group ride" per course and have three courses a year. If associates don't want to take part that fine same with our monthly social evening, its inclusive if you want but no one gets pushed into it.


The group ride is only open to associates who have archived a reasonable standard, and whilst it may be brisk we ensure that if anyone is looking a bit iffy we slow it down and at the next stop a gentle word is had.


Hope you pass your test. The feed back from a good examiner is certainly worth listening too. I'm re-tested every couple of years by a staff examiner to make sure my observing and riding are up to scratch. each test is a learning experience. I have been riding for over 40 years and there are still things to learn.


Anyone reading if you are thinking taking some extra training, Bike Safe IAM or Rospa or one of the commercial organisations. We are all trying to do the same thing. Help you read the situation earlier and make better decisions. We can all blame the other motorist for an incident but in most cases there would have been things we could have done differently which may have altered the result.


Give it a go for most its money well spent, and enjoyable too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks [mention]exportmanuk[/mention]. I know what other riders do can easily look crazy to you, any maybe those other riders were more skilled, but I felt there was a few occasions that a rider went into a bend at a speed I'd class as faster than ideal. I mean, obviously they made the corner, but if we start factoring in what could be lurking around the bend then for me I'd rather do the 10mph slower and then re-accelerate. It could be their skills are better than mine, who knows, or maybe it's just that they have done 200 corners like that now at that speed and all has been well, but my more pessimistic brain sits at 'what if?'. Not coming a cropper to me isn't necessarily 100% proof that you did everything well. And that's where I'd rather be and to stay - I don't fancy being first on scene to my own incident :wink: If people ever tell me that that's not advanced riding then we'll have to agree to disagree - I did overhear one guy say "if you're not doing the speed limit it's not advanced riding" and safe to say to me it proves it takes all sorts.... I'm doing this to be a better, safer rider and not to pretend I'm on a blue light run.


Hence why I was happy to ride my ride and sit at my pace. We had more than ten riders out but the drop off system worked well so wasn't worried about 'losing contact'. I will admit to one corner I came in a bit too ragged and didn't take it as well as I should (and then started to do all the things you should, such as braking, nearly coming off the throttle etc), I just mentally rebooted and reminded myself that I was riding for myself ready for the next corner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agree with you always ride at a speed that you can stop on your own side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear.


Last thing you want is to go around a bend and be greeted by the front of a combine harvester taking up the whole of the road. Especially if its coming towards you !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm all for being safe etc and if it gives the individual more confidence and makes them feel safer then it's all good ......just sat through a bit of the video below ... is it not just all common sense ?


">
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To a degree [mention]Six30[/mention] yes, but I'd also argue that many youtube uploads show how lacking this is in many....


I think there's some good stuff about positioning to be seen which maybe many riders don't pick up. I already did chunks of it because of my cycling life, I imagine many people who have come from car driving have never had to consider that as their car takes up the full width of a lane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting thread - thanks for posting it all.

I've often thought of doing an advanced riding course, but other things often seemed to get in the way.

Although I've been riding for about 15 years I don't thik I'm a particularly good rider - not incompetant or dangerous, but just lacking self confidence I guess.

I've had 4 crashes over the years - none of which I considered to be my fault, although on reflection in each scenario they could probably have been avoided if I'd had the experience / knowledge of advanced training.

So, at some point this year I will find the time and money to get some propper training under my belt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting thread - thanks for posting it all.

I've often thought of doing an advanced riding course, but other things often seemed to get in the way.

Although I've been riding for about 15 years I don't thik I'm a particularly good rider - not incompetant or dangerous, but just lacking self confidence I guess.

I've had 4 crashes over the years - none of which I considered to be my fault, although on reflection in each scenario they could probably have been avoided if I'd had the experience / knowledge of advanced training.

So, at some point this year I will find the time and money to get some propper training under my belt.

 

Stop procrastinating and do it, sign up with any of the courses IAM, ROSPA you wont regret it. My wife bought me a course for Christmas a few years ago. Started training in January and passed my test in April. One of the best things I've done. The learning continues even after the test :wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're not 100% sure [mention]winston smith[/mention], most groups do taster sessions. My local group also offered a discount if you joined after doing a taster ride. Go and see if it's for you.


I'll admit that listening to some advanced riders speak I don't think I'll ever fully ingratiate myself into their world. I think it's healthy to maintain a level of skepticism of your own abilities and some that I've met seem to have a... well... inflated opinion of how good they must be as they've got an advanced qualification. And some do seem to get stuck on an "overtake everything" mindset. Not all by any stretch. But just saying that I think you can take or leave the bits that work for you (as [mention]exportmanuk[/mention] says, he doesn't really do the large group rides, others seem to love doing them).


For me my observer has helped me confirm my initial attitude that I was generally a safe and perceptive rider who could read road situations and predict what may happen next, but given me some additional pointers along the way to improve it even more (the benefit of someone watching you from afar and giving you some feedback), but then also helped me with technique in corners and overtaking safely (I'm still more hesitant than most, but when I commit it's because I'm very happy to do so, and I'm happy to keep it that way).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but there's out of your comfort zone and then there's beyond your abilities.


I will always, always prefer to ride to 80% of my capabilities on the road. That doesn't mean you can't improve and you don't have to be shit scared to be improving. A brown trouser moment only means that something went a bit wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed, but words that can be taken in different ways by different people, depending on their personality.


I've been out of my comfort zone frequently since end of March last year, since I've gone from CBT to 125 to A licence to advanced training. But always focused on getting home safely.


To other people, the concept of "getting out of their concept zone" may be attempting to get their knee down on a B road corner.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Welcome to The Motorbike Forum.

    Sign in or register an account to join in.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

Please Sign In or Sign Up