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I did bikesafe and then a couple of years later I did the RoSPA course. They paired with me up with a lad who rode a Pan and we did a series of rides over a number of months, and each time I got feedback on how I'd ridden. The guy was great and gave me a lot of positive feedback and some things to work on: mainly position and overtaking. Over a cuppa after each ride we'd talk over a specific junction, or a car I'd had to negotiate, and how I could taken a better position or gained more speed or whatever. I found this kind of specific feedback a lot more useful than reading the general advice you can pick up in roadcraft or other places. At the end I took the test, although there was never any pressure on me to do it; I could just have done the training and walked away and they would have been happy.


What did I get out of it? I totally enjoyed it :D It was a great excuse to get out on the bike and ride places I hadn't been to before. I got some great advice, and learnt to ride and corner with a lot more confidence. And I like the way of riding they teach; I like the way it keeps me focussed on the road and planning ahead, and it feels great when it all comes together.


Reading around, I can see that other people have had bad experiences with their RoSPA or IAM group. My guess is that a lot depends on how well you get on with the person who's observing you. If it doesn't work out well with one person, you can ask for someone else or try a different group.

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I haven't done an advanced course on the bike yet but I did a fairly intensive 3 week advanced driving course. Well worthwhile IMO. I plan to do a course with RoSPA at some point.

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I learned a lot of stuff I'd never been told or thought of before, stuff that most drivers and riders don't even think about and ride on blissfully unaware waiting for an accident to take them by surprise.


I didn't learn anything about machine control though, it was all about observing, understanding, anticipating, and taking responsibility for the environment around you. Do a track event if you want to learn machine control.


Lots of people think they are brilliant riders already, so they start out not wanting to listen, and when they are told something isn't perfect with their riding they get upset, and don't want to hear it. These are usually the people that learn nothing.


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Its allowed me to make a 40 year (so far) career out of motorcycling from being able to get paid for riding Police bikes full time, to instructing and examining and visiting many parts of the world get paid for it.


On top of that it has kept me alive and I know of several others that it has also helped survive.


I have also been very fortunate in that it has allowed me to do many things that many people could only dream of being able to do, so has it been worthwhile?


You bet it has.....


But in all seriousness, any instruction is only as good as the person providing the instruction or the group that you belong to. When examining I see a lot of rubbish potentally dangerous instruction. If you are thinling about instruction, do your homework first or get some recommendations.

 


yep..


nothing...

 

Your that good are you? :roll:

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Has anyone done any advanced rider courses? If so what dod you gain from it if anything?

 

yep..


nothing...

Care to elaborate ?

What you've done and why you feel like you gained nothing from it .

Why would you go through the whole course if you thought you were gaining nothing from it?


Most people that say they gained nothing from it went for one or two observed rides and couldn't accept being told they weren't doing things in the best way.


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I did the IAM course, had some great instruction on a one to one basic. Riding, then analysing the ride and getting feedback and ways to improve my riding before the next ride. Passed my test 4 years ago and have continued to improve since.

Do I ride perfectly now? Certainly not.

Has it made me a better rider? Definitely, my road positioning, forward observation skills and traffic awareness are much higher than they would have been without the course.

I am now looking to be an accredited instructor when the chance arises.


IAM or ROSPA are worth doing....you do the IAM once but with ROSPA you have to retake your test every three years so there are plus and minuses for each path you might choose.

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IAM or ROSPA are worth doing....you do the IAM once but with ROSPA you have to retake your test every three years so there are plus and minuses for each path you might choose.

 


IAM First and IAM Masters also now have a retest requirement, and IAM standards have certainly improved since they introduced the Masters and the First.

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Although I am a senior RoSPA examiner, I have done my time as an IAM examiner albeit many years ago. I had to stop being an IAM examiner when I became chief motorcycle examiner for RoSPA although these days I am nothing more that a senior examiner. However, many are examiners for both, and in time I think that many civilian riders will become examiners as the number of class 1 riders diminish.


Anyway, I get asked al the time what an examiner looks for on test, and so I wrote this a few years ago as a guide which some groups have also adopted as a guide as well, but it still remains relevant and is still applied to this day.


I hope that it is not too boring for you, but that it gives you a flavour of what is covered at this level and what I and my colleagues look for when conducting a test regadless of which hat is being worn as it has nothing to do with the RoSPA or IAM standard, but an advanced stabdard which applies across the board.


The RoSPA (and now the IAM Masters and IAM First) advanced riding test is regarded as the most comprehensive and challenging available to the public. A RoSPA Gold is one of the highest civilian riding standard available and the holder will be a master of his or her art. If you pass the test you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you really are a good rider. The following notes give points which examiners will look for during a test, but they do not replace the need for full knowledge of Motorcycle Roadcraft and The Highway Code.


The general appearance of a motorcycle says a lot about the rider. The examiner will expect to see that your motorcycle is legal and in a roadworthy condition. It is easy to see a motorcycle‘s transmission and hydraulic fluids. You should ensure that levels and linkages are correctly or properly adjusted. The clothing, both in terms of its physical protection and high visibility/conspicuity, you wear as a rider is all important to your own safety. The examiner will expect you to wear appropriate clothing and footwear.


He will wish to see that your helmet meets British Standards and is in good condition, securely fastened, with a clean, unscratched visor. Any bags or containers must be securely fastened to the machine.


It is unlikely that anyone will gain a high grade without a good knowledge of Motorcycle Roadcraft, the police rider‘s handbook, which is available to the public at most bookshops. Local groups have experienced and trained tutors who will, free of charge, assess your performance. provide advice and support as you prepare for the test. You may not be fully practised in the application of the police system of riding as the advanced police rider. They have spent many weeks of full time training in order to achieve this standard. We appreciate that most members of the public will not have the riding time to reach this level of excellence.


However, the examiner will be looking for a satisfactory display of safe, systematic and smooth riding. He will explain, in the test debrief, any points which are causing difficulty, giving advice and sometimes practical ways of overcoming them. All Association examiners will have had considerable experience of many types of vehicles at police advanced level and many are also police instructors.


You will be expected to use all controls smoothly and with finesse.


Steering:

This should be smooth and controlled. He will watch to ensure that you can manoeuvre at low speeds and at higher speeds in line with safety and speed limits.


Clutch:

Your use of the clutch should show smoothness, delicacy and timing with the gear change lever.


Gears:

The way you use the gearbox will tell the examiner a lot about your ability. He will consider the way you make the change, your ability to match engine revolutions to road speed and how you use the gearbox when slowing to a stop.


Brakes:


How you use the brakes will play a big part in the examiner‘s final assessment. He will look for smoothness, early braking at the right place in the system, a careful balance of front and rear brakes to avoid pitching and skidding, and progressive change of brake pressure to bring the motorcycle to a smooth stop.


Throttle:


The throttle mechanism is spring loaded to its closed position. You must accustom yourself to this if you are to achieve smoothness. The examiner will want to see you displaying acceleration sense and, most important on a motorcycle, varying the power transmitted according to changes in road surface conditions.


Rear observations:


Rear observations play a big part in the system. It is important that the rider is aware of conditions to the rear as well as to the front to enable the early formulation of a riding plan. The timing of rear observation by using the mirror and shoulder checks will be examined. They should be made only when the act of looking away from the front is not in itself a hazard.


Horn:


The examiner will note audible warnings given. The horn should only be sounded when necessary, when all other safety features have been implemented.


Visibility:


Clean mirrors, windscreen and helmet visor are essential, particularly in wet conditions. Using demisting fluids and polishes to keep a clear view in the rain is important to a motorcyclist.


Smoothness:


Moving off and stopping must be smooth and safe. Good shoulder checks are essential before moving off. The rider should be able to control the machine at low speeds. The examiner will expect a careful balance of throttle and brakes. He will note the rider‘s choice of which foot to put down when stopping. The thinking rider will be able to place either both feet on the ground or balance with one foot while the other one works a control. To prevent the machine from rolling when stationary, one of the brakes should be kept applied where appropriate.


System:


The examiner will expect to see you demonstrate your understanding of the system, as outlined in Motorcycle Roadcraft, and the correct sequence of your riding actions. He will observe your hand and foot actions for balance and the timing of your signals. To do this the examiner may not be in the position behind you that you may expect. Do not be disconcerted. He may be checking that your rear observations are really to seek information, and not just a habitual or reflex action. Do not treat him as following traffic for the purpose of considering whether or not to give a signal.


The use of the system as outlined in Motorcycle Roadcraft is the cornerstone of advanced riding and inconsistencies in its application will affect the grade awarded. To achieve a gold or silver standard you should apply the system consistently throughout the test. A bronze grade may be typified by inconsistencies in its application.


Positioning:


The examiner will note how you position your machine for safety, stability and view on the approach to hazards both on the open road and in urban areas. He will note your use of lanes. You should be able to position the machine in order to obtain the best view that is available all the time. You should also understand that at times a position for view or speed will have to be sacrificed for the sake of safety. When you are riding round bends and corners, and not overtaking, you should not cross marked centre lines and should not cut corners when entering marked junctions. RoADA believes that to do so is potentially dangerous because such actions may be the result of entering the hazard too fast and may confuse oncoming and following drivers.


The Highway Code supports this view. If anything untoward happened during such a manoeuvre the driver might be seen to be at fault and might then blame RoADA for teaching or condoning this action. If there are no centre markings then some movement over the centre of the road may be acceptable


It is again emphasised that the mark of an advanced rider is always to be able to place the machine precisely where it belongs under all conditions and that it should be in the right place, travelling at the right speed and with the correct gear engaged.


Cornering:


The examiner will watch how you ride around corners and bends both in urban and rural areas. He will look at the line you take to ensure it gives the optimum view and safety margins. You will need to demonstrate that the principles and safety features of cornering are correctly applied.


Signals:


You should always remember that signals are the language of the road. You will need to consider the use of signals to warn other road users of your presence and intentions. They should therefore be given clearly and in good time. Arm signals should be given when appropriate to reinforce any mechanical signal. All these points will be noted by the examiner, who will also be observing your reaction to traffic signs.


Speed:


Advanced riders must be capable of controlling their machine at speeds up to the legal limit where it is safe to do so. While the use of speed must at all times be safe and legal, the examiner will want to see a brisk ride with good progress being made where possible. A driving plan that relies on exceeding the speed limit to complete a manoeuvre is unacceptable. If you consistently exceed the speed limit the examiner will stop the test and you will fail.


Overtaking:


While overtaking manoeuvres are inherently dangerous, they are a necessary element of the concept of good progress. However, they must be conducted safely and within the speed limit.


Deportment:


Rider and machine must blend harmoniously at all times. The controls should be adjusted so as almost to become extensions of the rider‘s limbs. Posture should be natural and comfortable. Lying flat on the tank or hanging off the seat when cornering should be treated as unnecessary for the road rider. Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of the good rider. Your consideration for other road users and your self discipline will reveal itself as will your temperament which, when riding, should be calm and relaxed but decisive.


Vehicle sympathy:


We expect Association members to respect their vehicles and develop motorcycle sympathy to the benefit of the current and future rider.


Observations:


One of the principal differences between the novice and the advanced rider is the huge amount which the latter sees and applies to the riding plan. You will be expected actively to seek information about changes in the short, medium and distant views. It is not enough merely to acknowledge a change because the examiner will wish to see evidence of observational links and how you cope with what you have seen.


Judging distance:


Your ability to judge distance and relate it to the speed of your own and other vehicles will be noted together with the way you link this ability with your braking and acceleration.


Motorways and Dual carriageways:


Joining the motorway can be from either lane of the slip road and will depend on traffic conditions. The use of the different elevation of the slip road and the motorway may give a better view of the motorway. Acceleration sense should be used to achieve an appropriate merge speed. Speed and following distances should be appropriate for the conditions. When leaving the motorway the candidate should be in lane 1 before the 300 yards marker and, if necessary, signalling that intention.

Knowledge:


At the conclusion of the test you will be asked several questions on The Highway Code, Motorcycle Roadcraft and basic motorcycle mechanics. You must be familiar with these two publications. There are a few things about how motorcycles work that every rider must know. Your motorcycle handbook should provide sufficient data for this part of the test. Be assured, no-one will be trying to catch you out. Know your subject well and you will not go far wrong. It is worth mentioning that through membership of RoSPA local groups you are likely to have many questions answered by the members who have already taken a test. It is unusual for a rider without some form of advanced rider training to obtain a high grade. Local group tutors group can help an their help and advice are free


As a footnote, anyone who obtains a RoSPA gold or an IAM Masters should be capable if given the opportunity of attaining the Police class 1 standard with the minimum of training and wich is why most blood bike groups require their riders to hold one of these qualifications as a minimum.

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Care to elaborate ?

What you've done and why you feel like you gained nothing from it .

 

that's a fair question


prior to takin my lesson & test I was involved in Motorcycle training ..

I rode my DR600 exactly as I had been taught to teach trainees for their test..

I completed my first lesson and the instructor put me forward for my test...


he raised 3 points


1. Don't follow too close behind lorries on dual carriageways .. Yep .. that was because the bike was under powered.. if I had taken my CBR600 it wouldn`t have happened.. :thumb:

2.Why was I goin so slow past parked cars through Hexham .. Had a car pull a U turn in similar circumstances and I was over cautious .. there was a line of cars comin the other way which left little room .. well it seemed that way to me ..

3.I had a second dab of the brakes when goin round a blind narrow bend onto a hump back bridge .. yep an unfamiliar road.


I took on board what I was told..


I took the test a short time later and passed..


The A3 size Pass certificate turned up in the post..

 

Your that good are you? :roll:

it doesn`t matter how I attempt to answer that remark it will never be good enough ..

you will pick fault with the answer..

so... No comment.

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1. Don't follow too close behind lorries on dual carriageways .. Yep .. that was because the bike was under powered.. if I had taken my CBR600 it wouldn`t have happened.. :thumb:

The power, or lack of, has nothing to do with how close you sit behind a lorry or car etc.

2.Why was I goin so slow past parked cars through Hexham .. Had a car pull a U turn in similar circumstances and I was over cautious .. there was a line of cars comin the other way which left little room .. well it seemed that way to me ..

First of all I can understand caution based on previous poor experience, it has probably happened to all of us at some point but....If the line of cars coming the other way left little room then you should have waited for them to pass thereby giving you lots of room and safety... Never compromise safety over position.

3.I had a second dab of the brakes when goin round a blind narrow bend onto a hump back bridge .. yep an unfamiliar road.

Had your road craft been better you would have been in the right gear, at the right time, and at the correct speed/position to have read the corner better and not needed a second dab of the brakes.....


Please don't read these as criticisms as they are just observations based on what you have written and my training


I know wait to be corrected by TC :D

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Care to elaborate ?

What you've done and why you feel like you gained nothing from it .

 

that's a fair question


prior to takin my lesson & test I was involved in Motorcycle training ..

I rode my DR600 exactly as I had been taught to teach trainees for their test..

I completed my first lesson and the instructor put me forward for my test...


he raised 3 points


1. Don't follow too close behind lorries on dual carriageways .. Yep .. that was because the bike was under powered.. if I had taken my CBR600 it wouldn`t have happened.. :thumb:

2.Why was I goin so slow past parked cars through Hexham .. Had a car pull a U turn in similar circumstances and I was over cautious .. there was a line of cars comin the other way which left little room .. well it seemed that way to me ..

3.I had a second dab of the brakes when goin round a blind narrow bend onto a hump back bridge .. yep an unfamiliar road.


I took on board what I was told..


I took the test a short time later and passed..


The A3 size Pass certificate turned up in the post..

 

Your that good are you? :roll:

it doesn`t matter how I attempt to answer that remark it will never be good enough ..

you will pick fault with the answer..

so... No comment.

But it doesnt answer what advanced training you went for .

As far as i can take it from your description you have only passed your cat a licence .and you had 3 minors .

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Your that good are you? :roll:

it doesn`t matter how I attempt to answer that remark it will never be good enough ..

you will pick fault with the answer..

so... No comment.

 

Well that is down to you. I was not being judgemental (unlike you :roll: ) I asked the question in good faith because your comment came across as "You know better than everyone else" or "You are that good there is nothing more you can learn".


Had you qualified your original comment, then I would not have said anything, because I hear it all the time from people who think that simply by passing their L test they have nothing more to learn.

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The following notes give points which examiners will look for during a test, but they do not replace the need for full knowledge of Motorcycle Roadcraft and The Highway Code.

Which edition of Motorcycle Roadcraft would you recommend for a new rider? Some reviews on Amazon of the 2013 edition seem pretty critical, both on bike-specific content and also the unedited copying and pasting from the car version.

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Had you qualified your original comment, then I would not have said anything, because I hear it all the time from people who think that simply by passing their L test they have nothing more to learn.

 

I do learn and continue to accumulate experience every day of the week in whatever I am given or have cause to use on a public road ..


this is the jpg.s of said certificate .. it wont fit in the scanner .. I have paint (-ed) out my name ..

 

But it doesnt answer what advanced training you went for .

As far as i can take it from your description you have only passed your cat a licence .and you had 3 minors ..

 

I booked in for Advanced training .. took one lesson and was put forward for the test by the instructor


http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab232/copycat73/img019.jpg


http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab232/copycat73/img020.jpg

Edited by Copycat73
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Please don't read these as criticisms as they are just observations based on what you have written and my training


I know wait to be corrected by TC :D

 

you know the instructor went through these things with me at the time .. and in better detail because he was there .....the test route included much of where the instructor took me ..

I took on board what he said and passed the test shortly afterwards ...

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Care to elaborate ?

What you've done and why you feel like you gained nothing from it .

 

that's a fair question


prior to takin my lesson & test I was involved in Motorcycle training ..

I rode my DR600 exactly as I had been taught to teach trainees for their test..

I completed my first lesson and the instructor put me forward for my test...


he raised 3 points


1. Don't follow too close behind lorries on dual carriageways .. Yep .. that was because the bike was under powered.. if I had taken my CBR600 it wouldn`t have happened.. :thumb:

2.Why was I goin so slow past parked cars through Hexham .. Had a car pull a U turn in similar circumstances and I was over cautious .. there was a line of cars comin the other way which left little room .. well it seemed that way to me ..

3.I had a second dab of the brakes when goin round a blind narrow bend onto a hump back bridge .. yep an unfamiliar road.


I took on board what I was told..

 

Just to be clear, I said many people who say they gained nothing didn't accept what they were told, that isn't meant to suggest you fell into that category, though if you had you would have been in the majority unfortunately.


I am surprised that you rode exactly as you would train your students (assume for a DSA test?) and only three things were picked up by an IAM observer. Kind of the point of advanced training that it moves you on from DSA test standard. I guess the DSA have moved things on since I last had any exposure, but I thought there were significant differences. Even at a basic level for instance road positioning, it used to be that the DSA taught centre of your lane on straight roads and into the left on left hand bends to stay away from anyone cutting the corner coming the other way. If you like it was dumbed down to account for the lowest common denominator, and try to keep the person with the least common sense safe. The system of motorcycle control (IPSGA) not taught at all, no riding plan, and definitely no techniques such as off siding, or taking an inside view for a left hand bend overtake.


I read roadcraft many years ago so some concepts in advanced riding weren't new to me as such, but they certainly weren't in DSA training as recently as 10 years ago, and some tools and techniques I learned were new to me.


As an ex DSA instructor, I'd be very interested to read your views on the differences today between DSA and Roadcraft and other advanced techniques.


I can't accept your explanation regards the DR600 I'm afraid. I rode an XT600E for 4 years and it had plenty of power to do whatever you wanted at legal speeds and would top out at 100mph. On a 125 you can maintain a suitable following distance, you just may not be able to overtake safely, but any observer would understand and accept this. The only concession advanced observers and police riders would give me for being on an XT600, was I had to put both tippy toes down at traffic lights otherwise I'd fall over.


To end on a positive note, I do totally understand what you are saying about being criticised for being slow in a hazardous situation. I did feel in my training there was sometimes an unhealthy push towards immediacy and not being seen to be hesitant, but a rider taking his time doesn't always mean he's hesitating, in most cases when I was criticised for that I wasn't hesitating at all, I was completely relaxed, not in any rush and simply being patient in a situation where to gain an advantage would do nothing to reduce my journey time, or my exposure to risk. With advanced training however many examiners will mark you down if they see you "missing" an opportunity to gain ground, but there is a difference between missing it, and seeing it but choosing not to take it because there is no discernable benefit, and you are quite relaxed and happy enjoying your ride,




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I am surprised that you rode exactly as you would train your students (assume for a DSA test?) and only three things were picked up by an IAM observer.

 

my trainin days were before DAS and ended 31:12:96 as it ( DAS ) came in 01.01.97 as I did not have my "ticket" to do that .. and frankly the work "fell off a cliff" in the new year and I went onto other things.. and anyway his business was floundering...

 

Even at a basic level for instance road positioning, it used to be that the DSA taught centre of your lane on straight roads and into the left on left hand bends to stay away from anyone cutting the corner coming the other way.

 

was taught to command my road position .. basically whenever possible stay in the middle of the lane..

 

The system of motorcycle control (IPSGA) not taught at all, no riding plan, and definitely no techniques such as off siding, or taking an inside view for a left hand bend overtake.

 

this I sort of recognise ..especially the over takin positioning on bends ... but its some thing I`ve picked up myself and not just from motorcycles ..

more to do with HGV/PSV

I read roadcraft many years ago so some concepts in advanced riding weren't new to me as such, but they certainly weren't in DSA training as recently as 10 years ago, and some tools and techniques I learned were new to me.

As an ex DSA instructor, I'd be very interested to read your views on the differences today between DSA and Roadcraft and other advanced techniques.

I`m gonna pass on that one ... I kinda just do .. and don`t consciously analyse what or why..


 

I can't accept your explanation regards the DR600 I'm afraid. I rode an XT600E for 4 years and it had plenty of power to do whatever you wanted at legal speeds and would top out at 100mph.

 

that bike would do 90 mph .. it struggled to get there .. I would be hangin on for dear life and it would weave across the whole lane .. something I did only half a dozen times in 14years..

the "problem is sorted" I got rid and bought bikes in the 1 litre IL4 class ..because they are easy to ride..

 

To end on a positive note, I do totally understand what you are saying about being criticised for being slow in a hazardous situation.

 

there are two types of bikers .. those who have HAD that accident and those who have not ..

I`ve had mine and I`m still too slow through parked cars... especially white fiat uno (s)


I am not dismissive of further training .. for some it will be the bees knees .. I followed the best advice of the day and jumped through the hoops I was shown .. time & money investment and got nothing in return ..


that was nearly 19 years ago ontop of the 14 years bikin prior to that.. since then I have "crafted my art" and I`m still here in one piece ..

Frankly i`m done with Training either givin or receiving...


and no ffence to those that provide it thank you ..... :cheers:

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The following notes give points which examiners will look for during a test, but they do not replace the need for full knowledge of Motorcycle Roadcraft and The Highway Code.

Which edition of Motorcycle Roadcraft would you recommend for a new rider? Some reviews on Amazon of the 2013 edition seem pretty critical, both on bike-specific content and also the unedited copying and pasting from the car version.

 

I am still biased in favour of the first re-write after the blue book, only because I was one of those involved in the re-write :) :wink:


At the end of the day, people will find fault with all editions, even going back to the blue book which was my bible when I first qualified back in 1981/82


Whatever copy you use, al you have to remember is that unlike the DSA test where everything is done by numbers, at advanced level 95% of what is taught to pass the L test goes out of the window as it is not fit for purpose and so you consider the points that are relevant.


So for example wth the system (IPSGA) you consider each element except information (which overlaps everything on that we receive and give information). You consider your position, you consider your speed, you consider what gear is required and you consider the

correct degree of acceleration to leave the hazard safely. Nowhere do any editions say "Must" or "Will" only "Consider" as everything is flexible.


So whilst every edition has its critics, the basics remain constant regrdless of which edition you read.

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