Jump to content

Westminster attack!


rennie
 Share

Recommended Posts

Ive always been proud of the fact British cops arent armed, but perhaps were reaching the point that it has to change, or at least substantially increase the proprtion of officers carrying. But will they want to? I imagine a lot of them wouldnt want the responsibility of shooting someone. Its awesome thing to do and can be very hard on the shooter psychologically.

 

Many years ago, a national poll was held internally to find out what the general concensus was with regards to arming us full time.


I am going back to the late 80's early 90's I grant you, but I was one of the 80% + who said that if were were made to carry guns as part of our uniform and on a daily basis we would resign.


Back then, our attitude was that we Policed by consent and had been taught to talk our way out of trouble in the main. In my area and in my department in particular, we were also still very raw and suffering as it was shortly after Hungerford (1987) when we lost our friend and colleague Roger (Gobby) Brereton.


We also worked on the basis that arming the Police full time would breed further violence and an increase in gun use.


We also had an attitude that you get cowboys in Police cars with the "Look at me I am cool" type attitude. Give the same cowboy a gun and the potential for disaster does not bear thinking about.


And then you have the issue of the consequences if you draw your weapon which increase expedentially if you discharge your weapon and injure or worse still kill someone, and of course the officer has to live to with that for the rest of their days. Not a problem if it is a scumbag such as the one killed yesterday, but in the normal course of policing.


Even now, compared with many other countries, we are by and large pretty furtunate in that we do not have a recognised gun culture and so firearms incidents are kept fairly low.


Anyway, the point I was making badly and getting to is, I wonder what the concensus and opinion would be now if serving bods were asked the same question again today?


If they agreed to carry guns routinely, would that put paid to the tradition of a citizen locally appointed and policing by consent withthe consent of his/her community?


Does the UK Police service then become more of a para military organisation? This was something that was guggested when we on traffic were issued with NATO pullovers back in the early 80's.


I don't know the answer...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How many Police lives could have been saved in recent years if they'd been carrying though Tony?


For example, those two Policewomen who were shot on the doorstep a couple of years ago?


Society has changed a lot from when we were young......and I think serving Police Officers deserve the right to be able to protect themselves and innocent people around them if necessary.


Obviously, I never lived in a society where the Police were armed till I came to Spain in 2005......but I tell you what, I feel a lot safer because of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Society has changed a lot from when we were young......

 

They used to broadcast live telephone phone-ins on kids breakfast TV. Anyone could phone in and speak to pop stars LIVE with no buffering...

they don't dare do that now because everyone would be trying to swear live on air... thats how bad society has got :evil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How many Police lives could have been saved in recent years if they'd been carrying though Tony?


For example, those two Policewomen who were shot on the doorstep a couple of years ago?


Society has changed a lot from when we were young......and I think serving Police Officers deserve the right to be able to protect themselves and innocent people around them if necessary.


Obviously, I never lived in a society where the Police were armed till I came to Spain in 2005......but I tell you what, I feel a lot safer because of it.

 

I hear what you are saying, which is why I said, I don't know the answer.


At Westminster and other places of high risk, the Police are armed routinely. Buck House, Windsor, Chequers, Heathrow, Gatwick to name but a few, but more and more Police are carrying firearms as routine, but once you start making it an armed Police service, you increase the risk of firearms offences rising substantially.


Maybe the younger generation or those just starting out might not have an issue with carrying a weapon, whereas I come from a different generation, but in the same vein, every individual who joins the Police service realise that they may be injured or killed in the line of duty. You accept the risk when you join, and in fact I can remember several occasions when a report of an armed robbery occuring would come in, and you would be in the car and gone heading towards the danger without giving it a second thought.


This was born out one time when when I was at a function at the Barracks at Windsor and I was talking to a Sgt Major and he was saying that he could not do my job. When I asked why, he said that they trained for weeks, were mentally prepared to go to war and it was a case of kill or be killed, wheras we could go into work at say 2 and be dead by 3. I never thought of it that way, but then it went back to me thinking about the armed robbery scenario.


Shortly before I retired there was an armed robbery just outside Reading at a local Post office. Long story short, I was on the bike and saw the vehicle as it stopped outside another Post Office.


I radio'd in my location and as the passenger went inside, I parked up behind vehicle, and the driver came out through the drivers door window (which was down fortunately). I handcuffed him and as a Panda car pulled up, I grabbed another set of handcuffs and nicked the passenger as he came out of the Post Office.


Search of the vehicle revealed 2 guns..... To me they looked real. They turned out to be fakes, but very good fakes, but as someone said, what if they had been real? That was the risk we took and it was not until we had these to toe rags trapped up that I took stock of what had happened and could have happened.


I think that the majority of coppers still have the same attitude today.


But, what if I had been armed and maybe a bit trigger happy? It is one thing running someone over or kicking the crap out of them, but shooting them because of a sensitive trigger finger? Not so sure.


I personally think we have the balance between armed and unarmed about right,


Martin may have a different view as he is still serving.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously, I never lived in a society where the Police were armed till I came to Spain in 2005......but I tell you what, I feel a lot safer because of it.

I've been dragged into a basement by gun-toting police, who then proceeded to kick the living shit out of me.


No, I never felt safer living in a country where the cops were armed - because it simply breeds a situation where more people get arms. There are solutions to dealing with knife-wielding nutters, giving the police munitions is not it.


The police suffer, as do all the public services, from a crippling level of paperwork, ridiculous inspection regimes and criminal underfunding. The thoroughness of the training coppers receive in their specialities has ebbed away.


Give the police money, give them proper support again (instead of Group IV), give them more numbers, give them comprehensive ongoing self defence training and give them hours instead of meaningless targets - but don't give them bullets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously, I never lived in a society where the Police were armed till I came to Spain in 2005......but I tell you what, I feel a lot safer because of it.

I've been dragged into a basement by gun-toting police, who then proceeded to kick the living shit out of me.


No, I never felt safer living in a country where the cops were armed - because it simply breeds a situation where more people get arms. There are solutions to dealing with knife-wielding nutters, giving the police munitions is not it.


The police suffer, as do all the public services, from a crippling level of paperwork, ridiculous inspection regimes and criminal underfunding. The thoroughness of the training coppers receive in their specialities has ebbed away.


Give the police money, give them proper support again (instead of Group IV), give them more numbers, give them comprehensive ongoing self defence training and give them hours instead of meaningless targets - but don't give them bullets.

 

Agreed.


It's a no from me. The guy had a death wish. He was going to stab someone whether that Officer had a gun or not. If he had a gun, could he have unholstered and shot him? Did he have a taser? Why didn't he use that?


My understanding is he had his taser but chose to apprehend the guy physically(?)


No one knows at this point. Arming the Police, however, wont stop attacks like this, or the one on Jo Cox, or the Paris attack, or the Bastille attack, or 7/7.


Stopped Jean Charles De Menezes, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think all our Police should be armed all of the time!

We'll probably have to increase the numbers of armed police available though!


I don't think people realise what a responsibility being an armed police man/woman is!


The closest experience I have personally is from The Gulf when I was in charge of some armed sentries

as Iraqi soldiers were surrendering, all I was thinking was please don't make me shoot you! and worrying

that 1 of my men would get an itchy trigger finger! There was the possibility then that they may have

been booby trapped!


It wasn't a nice experience and I'll never forget it, to be put in that position frequently has to take it's toll

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Should all police be armed? No


Should all police that are guarding/patrolling sensitive areas be armed? Yes


I'm still surprised that officers guarding Westminster weren't all armed. Reports did say that it was a ministers armed bodyguards that actually shot the attacker?


I say no for all police as we are policed by consent and I don't trust every officer to be calm and methodical when they decide to pull that trigger.


We've seen too many incidents of totally innocent people being taserd and while that is no laughing matter at least they usually walk away, a couple have died IIRC. Personally I'd also like to see the number of tasers reduced but I guess I'm in the minority on that.


No easy answer as TC says and he's more qualified than most of us here to comment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

arming our police wont reduce the threat of terrorism, cause the retards are mentally backward and are hell bent on killing, Police carrying guns could help stop an attack in its tracks more quickly... If the Nice attack happened in uk how much further would that truck have travelled with no armed police ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

arming our police wont reduce the threat of terrorism, cause the retards are mentally backward and are hell bent on killing, Police carrying guns could help stop an attack in its tracks more quickly... If the Nice attack happened in uk how much further would that truck have travelled with no armed police ?

 

A simple home made armoured car could easily drive about in central London killing thousands of people before being stopped.

With metal plates over the windows and runflat tyres even cops with guns would struggle to stop it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I'm concerned, if Islamic terrorists are so keen to meet Allah we should do all we can to hasten the introduction. That said, I'm not immediately convinced that giving every British policeman a gun would make me feel any safer. More of those specially trained firearms officers wouldn't be a bad idea though, especially in high-risk locations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

arming our police wont reduce the threat of terrorism, cause the retards are mentally backward and are hell bent on killing, Police carrying guns could help stop an attack in its tracks more quickly... If the Nice attack happened in uk how much further would that truck have travelled with no armed police ?

 

A simple home made armoured car could easily drive about in central London killing thousands of people before being stopped.

With metal plates over the windows and runflat tyres even cops with guns would struggle to stop it.

 


Or if they made a transformer that could change into a tank then a Ferrari to get away afterwards... :roll:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here you go, IPCC investigation has now begun https://www.policeoracle.com/news/terrorism_and_allied_matters/2017/Mar/24/IPCC-open-investigation-into-fatal-police-shooting-in-Westminster_94466.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


I sympathise with the poor bugger who pulled the trigger being investigated by this lot


PS. You may not be able to open the link as you need to register, but it I hope gives you a source and an idea of what the poor sods on the front line have to put up with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand a process has to be followed, that should be an open and shut case with minimal fuss for the fella who did his job correctly.

probably be accused of using excessive force or something ridiculous

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand a process has to be followed, that should be an open and shut case with minimal fuss for the fella who did his job correctly.

probably be accused of using excessive force or something ridiculous

 

Your observation is not far off the mark.


Now that the IPCC are involved, the poor sod who pulled the trigger and did his job properly and professionaly will be made to feel like he was the terrorist instead of the scumbag he took down, and he will be made to feel that he should have politely asked the terrorist to put the knife down and would he mind if said officer arrested said b@stard.


Then he will be continually asked why he put 3 rounds into said scumbag when one might have sufficed?


Investigation is normal, it is the way they conduct the investigation, which is why I said I feel sorry for the poor sod.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your observation is not far off the mark.


Now that the IPCC are involved, the poor sod who pulled the trigger and did his job properly and professionaly will be made to feel like he was the terrorist instead of the scumbag he took down, and he will be made to feel that he should have politely asked the terrorist to put the knife down and would he mind if said officer arrested said b@stard.


Then he will be continually asked why he put 3 rounds into said scumbag when one might have sufficed?


Investigation is normal, it is the way they conduct the investigation, which is why I said I feel sorry for the poor sod.

"Well your honour, I did consider asking the individual politely to cease stabbing my colleague to death so I may perchance slip some 'cuffs on but seeing as I'd forgotten to take my Berocca that morning I simply gave him a double tap... And one for luck."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Well your honour, I did consider asking the individual politely to cease stabbing my colleague to death so I may perchance slip some 'cuffs on but seeing as I'd forgotten to take my Berocca that morning I simply gave him a double tap... And one for luck."

 

I see that you have previous experience of these things :D :wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Well your honour, I did consider asking the individual politely to cease stabbing my colleague to death so I may perchance slip some 'cuffs on but seeing as I'd forgotten to take my Berocca that morning I simply gave him a double tap... And one for luck."

 

I see that you have previous experience of these things :D :wink:

Yes, I too was once in charge of 5d on a Friday afternoon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see that you have previous experience of these things :D :wink:

Only anecdotally.


Some scrot made a complaint against me for "unreasonable force" once - he'd just burgled a house and thought it unreasonable that I ruined his getaway by ripping him down from the wall he was scaling and [strikeout]chucking him on the ground[/strikeout] putting him in the prone position.


I got called to see the boss just after parade who said "I've been told to speak to you about this complaint... I have now spoken to you about this complaint. Have a fruitful shift."


He was quality. :-D


I've never heard a good thing about the police that police the police. I did now a bloke who's hobby was winding them up though. You'd always know when he'd been in to see them because he'd be beaming for the rest of the shift.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back to the original subject. One bit of good news is that whilst the IPCC are investigating the circumstances, no Police officer is currently under investigation, although I suspect that this may change when they start looking at who left the gates open and access to Parliament was unprotected for a while as everyone went to investigate what was going on


https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/statement-following-westminster-terrorism-attack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then he will be continually asked why he put 3 rounds into said scumbag when one might have sufficed.

"Did I fire three rounds, or was it only two? To tell you the truth I kinda lost count myself in all the excitement..."


Joking apart, I'd hate to be a policeman these days. My wife used to be a police intelligence analyst, and between the IPCC and the CPS she couldn't see why most of them bothered to keep showing up for work. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Welcome to The Motorbike Forum.

    Sign in or register an account to join in.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

Please Sign In or Sign Up